MAI
BOSTON
PUBLIC
LIBRARY
r»-*-^«
REPORT
FliOM THE
SELECT COMMITTEE
ANATOMY.
STATE '
Ordered, by The House of Commons, <o 6e Printed,
22 /w/j/ 1828.
568.
THE REPORT - P- 3
MINUTES OF EVIDENCE P* 14
APPENDIX
p. 124
REPORT.
THE SELECT COMMITTEE appointed to inquire into the manner
of obtaining Subjects for Dissection in the Schools of Anatomy,
and into the State of the Law affecting the Persons employed in
obtaining or dissecting Bodies; and to whom several Petitions
for the removal of Impediments to the cultivation of the Science
of Anatomy were referred; and who were empowered to report the
Minutes of Evidence taken before them; — Hav£, pursuant to
the Order of The House, examined the matters to them referred ;
and agreed to the following REPORT:
THE peculiar nature of the Subject which the Committee were appointed to
investigate, has induced them to inquire principally into the practice of the
Anatomical Schools of London, where, by personal communication with the most
eminent surgeons and with the students and principal teachers of Anatomy, it
could be fully ascertained that no detriment to their interests was to be apprehended
from the publicity to arise out of the present inquiry. With regard to the practice
of the provincial schools, to avoid the expense of summoning witnesses from a
distance, they have been satisfied with written communications from resident
professors or practitioners of eminence, which will be found in the Appendix.
The Committee bave inquired into the nature of the difficulties which the
Anatomists have here to contend with, whether arising out of the state of the
law, or an adverse feeling on the part of the people ; and into the evil con-
sequences thence ensuing, as well to the sciences of Medicine and Surgery, as to
all who study, teach, and practise them, and eventually to the members of the
whole community. They have called witnesses to shew in what manner the wants
of the Anatomist are provided for in several foreign schools, and to state their
opinion, whether similar methods could be applied with advantage in this country,
and if applied, would be adequate to remove the present difficulties.
The first origin of these difficulties is obviously to be traced to that natural
feeling which leads men to treat with reverence the remains of the Dead ; and the
same feeling has prompted them, in almost all times and countries, to regard with
repugnance, and to persecute, Anatomy.
As the importance of the Science to the well-being of mankind was discovered,
the governments of different states became its protectors, and in this country par-
ticularly, by the statute of Henry the 8th, protection to a certain extent was given,
and intended to be given to it ; but that protection, which at first, perhaps, was
fully adequate, owing to the rapid progress of the Science, has long since become
wholly insufficient.
How limited were the wants of the Science in the former part of the last century,
may be learnt from the lectures of Dr. William Hunter, who describes the pro-
fessors of the most celebrated schools, both at home and abroad, as employing in
5»8. A 2 each
Lectures of
Dr. W. Hunter.
London. 1784.
p. 88.
See also Appendix
to this Report, N" 3.
p. 125.
REPORT FROM SELECT COMMITTEE
Idem. Memorial
to Karl Bute,
pp. 118, 119.
Idem. Memorial
to Earl Bute, p. 1 19.
Also, Dr. Matthew
Baillie's Posthu-
mous Works.
London, 1825.
pp. 71, 74.
Dr. W. Hunter's
Lectures, pp. 108,
109, no, 119.
Question, 176.
Question, 1277.
Appendix, p. 143.
Question, 23.
Appendix, N° 14.
Questions, 24,535,
and Letter, p. 55.
Questions 24, 182.
Question, 137.
Questions, 26, 154,
241.
Questions, 26, 153
to 160, 181, 219,
242, 280, 281, 282,
336, 338, 362, 398,
46o,595>744.838,
976,977,978,1295.
Question, 27, 138.
Question, 28.
See Dr. W. Hunter's
Memorial to Earl
Bute, and the Do-
cumentary Papers,
printed at the end
of his Lectures.
each course of lectures not more than one, or at most two, subjects, and as exhi-
biting the performance of the operations of surgery, not on human bodies, but on
those of animals. lie represents the students in Medicine and Surgery as never
exercising themselves in the practice of dissection, because for such practice they
had no opportunities.
For such a system of instruction the provisions of the statute of Henry the 8th
might well be adequate, and these provisions, indeed, may now be considered of
importance only as a distinct admission of the principle, that the government of
this country ought to protect Anatomy. The reformation of this antiquated and
imperfect system took place, in this country, in the year 1746, when Dr. William
Hunter, having a singular enthusiasm for the science, established complete courses
of Anatomical Lectures, and opened a regular school for Dissection. The reform
thus introduced was complete, and its author exulted before his death in having
raised and diffused such a spirit for dissection, that he should leave behind him
many better Anatomists than himself.
Under his immediate pupils, and their successors, this School has gone on
increasing. The earliest account that the Committee have met with of the num-
ber of anatomical students resorting to London, is that given by Mr. Abernethy,
who states that shortly after the breaking out of the war with France, they
amounted to 200. One of the witnesses. Dr. Macartney, computes their number
in the year 1798 at 300: and Mr. Brookes, a teacher of Anatomy, in a calcu-
lation submitted to Sir Astley Cooper in the year 1 823, then reckoned their
number to be l.ooo. It appears from the returns now furnished by the teachers
of the different schools in London, that their number at present is somewhat
above 800: the diminution in the number since the year 1823, being the conse-
quence, probably, of the pupils resorting to foreign schools, the advantages of
which were less known at the former period than they are at present.
When it is considered what a demand there is for practitioners, as well to
meet the wants of an increased population at home, as of an extended empire of
colonies and dependencies abroad, this rapid increase of students will not appear
surprizing ; and if it is considered also, that not only is that demand an increasing
one, but that every practitioner, however humble, from that laudable desire for
intellectual improvement which characterizes the present age, endeavours, if he
can afford it, to obtain a good education, and must regard himself as ill-educated
if he has not gone through a course of dissection, the eventual increase of dis-
secting students can hardly be calculated, should their wants be supplied abun
dantly and at a cheap rate.
Although the students now attending the schools of Anatomy in London
•exceed 800, not more than 500 of this number actually dissect. The duration
of their studies in London is usually sixteen months, and during that time the
number of subjects with which every student in Surgery ought to be supplied,
appears from the evidence (although there is some difference on this point) to be
not less than three ; two being required for learning the structure of the parts of
the body, and one the mode of operating. The total number of subjects actually
dissected in the schools of London, in one year, is stated to be not greater than
from 450 to 500, which is after the rate of less than one subject for each dis-
secting student ; a proportion wholly insufficient for the purposes of complete
education.
Dissection, on an extended scale, began in this country, before there existed
any such general feeling in its favour, founded on an opinion of its utility, that
the British government, after the example of some foreign governments, would
venture openly to patronize it. Accordingly, when in 1763 Dr. Hunter proposed
to
ON ANATOMY.
to build an Anatomical Theatre, and to endow it with his museum and a salary
for a professor, provided the government would grant him a site of ground for the
institution, and his late Majesty would extend to it his countenance and pro-
tection, he met with a silent refusal. It was therefore only by stealth, and by
means not recognized by the law, that the teacher was enabled to procure sub-
jects. These means, it is notorious, from the time of Dr. Hunter down to the
present time, have been principally disinterment ; though, of late, other illegal
modes and contrivances, such as stealing before burial, personation of relatives
for the purpose of claiming bodies, &c. have occasionally been had recourse to.
For some time after the first establishment of dissecting schools, while the
number of teachers and students was small, and the demand for subjects very
limited, the means which were resorted to for obtaining a supply, were adequate
to the wants of the students, and bodies were obtained in abundance and cheaply.
The exhumators, at that time, were few, and circumspect in their proceedings,
detection was rare, the offence was little noticed by the public, and was scarcely
regarded as penal ; so that (according to one of the witnesses) long after the
decision of the Judges, in l 7S8, that disinterment was a misdemeanor, prosecutions
for this offence were not common, and offenders taken in the fact were usually
liberated. If this state of things had continued, though the illegality of the prac-
tices had recourse to must be conceded, yet they could scarcely be said to
occasion evils of such magnitude, as to require a legislative remedy. But the
number of students and teachers having greatly increased, and, with them, the
demand for subjects and the number of exhumators, detections became frequent,
the practice of exhumation notorious, and- public odium and vigilance were
directed strongly against the offenders. It may be collected from the debates in
Parliament which took place in the year 1 796, during the progress of a Bill for
subjecting to dissection the bodies of felons executed for burglary and robbery,
that, even at that time, the public regarded disinterment with strong feelings of
jealousy.
In proportion as the public became vigilant, the laws relating to sepulture were
interpreted and executed with increasing rigour ; and as the price of subjects rose
with the difficulty of obtaining them, the premium for breaking the laws increased
with the penalty. The exhumators increased in number, and being now treated
as criminals, became of a more desperate and degraded character.
The parties of daring men who now took to raising bodies, did it happen (as
was frequently the case), that, while in pursuit of the same spoil, they fell in one
with another, actuated by vindictive feeling, and regardless of the caution and
secrecy on which the successful continuance of their hazardous occupation must
depend, had contests in the places of sepulture — left the graves open to public
gaze, or gave information to magistrates, or the relatives of the disinterred,
against their rivals. Frequently, with a view to raise the price of subjects, to
extort money, or to destroy rivalry, they have proceeded to acts of outrageous
violence, tending to excite the populace against the teachers of Anatomy. These,
and similar acts of violence or imprudence, have been constantly bringing exhu-
mation to light, and have exasperated the public against both the exhumator and
the Anatomist : and this to such a degree, that of late, in many cases, individuals,
out of sollicitude to guard the dead, have taken upon themselves to dispense with
the laws of their country, and have fired upon parties attempting disinter-
ment. Other circumstances, but of minor importance, have been assigned by
some of the witnesses as augmenting the difficulty of obtaining subjects in London,
or increasing the demand for them ; but as regards them, the Committee beg leave
to refer to the Evidence itself. The general result has been, with some difference,
according to differences of place and season, (sometimes owing to the caprice
and mercenary motives of the agents employed, at other times owing to the real
difficulty of obtaining a supplv.) that, of late, subjects have been to be procured,
.568. A 3 either
Hunter's Lectures,
PP-113, 118.
Question, 29.
Questions, 949, 1119,
1120, 1255, 1256.
Questions, 1420,
1465.
Questions, 434,
1277, 1403.
Question, 1277.
Question, 1277.
Question, 227.
Questions, 1277,
1351-
Questions, 180,
1351-
Hansard's Parlia-
mentary Debates,
vol. 32. p. 918.
Questions, 765,
et seq.
Questions, 1277,
1351-
Questions, 789, 958,
1260.
Questions, 342, 788,
810, 1250, 1252, 1425.
Questions, 33, 949,
957,958, 1259.
Appendix, p. 143.
Questions, 322, 774.
Questions, 48, 289,
349. 1151-
Questions, 766, 767,
770, 799, 800, 816,
1226, 1280, 1424.
Questions, 13.51,
1352.
Question, 33.
6 REPORT FROM SELECT COMMITTEE
Questions, 37, 179, either not at all, or in very insufficient quantity, and at prices most oppressive to
368, 323, 70'K, 77'i. ., . , 1.1.
048. the teacher and .student.
Questions, 31, 1277.
Questions, 30, 223,
2G9, 425.
Question, 949.
Questions, 412, 415,
544,545.95" 10955.
Questions, 36, 286,
340,341, 426.
Appendix, N" 3,
p. 126.
The price of a subject, about thirty years ago, was from one to two guineas ;
the teacher now pays from eight to ten guineas ; and the price has risen even to
sixteen guineas. The teachers deliver subjects to their dissecting pupils at a lower
price than that at which they purchase them, having hcen compelled to resort to
this expedient, lest dissection in London should be abandoned altogether. The
loss which they thus sustain, is made good out of the fees which they receive for
attendance on their lectures in the Anatomical Theatre. The cost of providing
subjects is also enhanced to the teacher, by his being required occasionally to
defend the exhumator against legal prosecution, and to maintain him against
want, if sentenced to imprisonment, and his family, in case he has one, until the
period of his punishment expires.
Nor is it only of a precarious, insufficient, and expensive mode of obtaining
subjects that the cultivators of Anatomy complain — it is by the law, not as regards
the exhumators, but as it affects themselves, that they are aggrieved.
Question, 1154.
Appendix, p. 145.
Appendix, p. 147.
13th Count of the
Indictment.
See Report of this
Trial in the Morning
Herald Newspaper,
Questions, 1102,
1107, 1109, 112G.
Questions, 52,53,
113,328.
Question, 1167.
Questions,
1169.
Questions, 329,
882, 1103.
Questions, 1154,
1158,1159,1171.
Appendix, p. 146.
Appendix, p. 146.
Question, 1158.
Appendix, p. 147
The first reported case of a trial for disinterment is that of Rex v. Lynn, in
the year 1788, when the court of King's Bench, on a motion for an arrest of
judgment, decided it to be a misdemeanor to carry away a dead body from a
churchyard, although for the purpose of dissection, as being an offence contra
bonos mores and common decency. In this state the law on the subject of dis-
interment, as interpreted by the court of King's Bench, appears to have remained,
until the present year ; when Davies and another were tried and convicted at
the assizes at Lancaster, and subsequently received the sentence of the court sitting
at Westminster, for having taken into their possession, with intent to dissect,
a dead body, at the time knowing the same to have been unlawfully disinterred.
A respectable teacher of Anatomy, residing at Liverpool, had been tried and found
guilty on a similar indictment at the quarter sessions at Kirkdale, in the month
of February in the same year. With these exceptions, magistrates appear hitherto
to have taken no cognizance of receiving into possession a dead body, unless there
were strict evidence that the receiver was a party to the disinterment ; and on
this practical view of the state of the law, professional men also appear hitherto
to have acted. At present, however, a most intelligent magistrate, one of the
witnesses, considers, that very slight evidence would connect the receiver with the
disinterment ; and that the purchase from the exhumator would suffice to send
the case to a jury, the knowledge of the fact of disinterment being to be collected
from the circumstances, if strong enough to justify the inference. It is stated,
that there is scarcely a student or teacher of Anatomy in England, who under the
law, if truly thus interpreted, is not indictable for a misdemeanor.
According to the opinion of the last cited witness, to be a party to the non-
interment, as well as to the disinterment of a dead body, would render a person
indictable for a misdemeanor. Two cases are cited in support of this opinion.
In the one, Rex v. Young, a non-reported case, but referred to by the Court in the
case of Rex v. Lynn, the master of a workhouse, a surgeon, and another person,
were indicted for, and convicted of, a conspiracy, to prevent the burial of a person
who died in the workhouse. In the other, Rex v. Cundick, which occurred at the
Surrey spring assizes, in the year 1822, the defendant was found guilty on an in-
dictment for a misdemeanor, charging him with not having buried the body of an
executed felon, entrusted to him by the gaoler of the county for that purpose ; but
with having sold the body, for lucre and gain* and for the purpose of being dis-
sected : and on this trial, it was not considered necessary to prove that the body had
been sold for lucre, or for the purpose of dissection. The witness infers, from the
analogy
ON ANATOMY.
analogy of all these cases, that to treat a dead body as liable to any thing but Questions:
funeral rites, is an offence contra bonos mores, and therefore a misdemeanor. u59-
This state of the law is injurious to students, teachers, and practitioners, in every
department of medical and surgical science, and appears to the Committee to be
highly prejudicial to the public interests also.
It is the duty of the student to obtain, before entering into practice, the most
perfect knowledge, he is able, of his profession ; and for that purpose to study
thoroughly the structure and functions of the human body; in which study he can
only succeed by frequent and repeated dissection. But his wants cannot ade-
quately be supplied in this country, except at an expense, amounting nearly to
a prohibition, which can be afforded only by the most wealthy, and precludes
many students from dissecting altogether. From the precariousness or insuffi-
ciency of the supply, the dissections and lectures are often suspended for many
weeks, during which the pupils are exposed to the danger of acquiring habits of
dissipation and indolence ; and, from the same causes, that important part of
surgical education is usually omitted, which consists in teaching how to perform
on the dead body those operations which the student may afterwards be required
to practise on the living. But not only does the student find dissection expensive
and difficult of attainment ; but he cannot practise it, without either committing
an infringement of the law himself, or taking advantage of one committed by
others. In the former case, he must expose himself to imminent hazard, and in
either, he may incur severe penalties, and be exposed to public obloquy. The
law, through the medium of the authorities entrusted with conferring diplomas, and
of the boards deputed by them to examine candidates for public service, requires
satisfactory proof of proficiency in Anatomical Science, although there are no
means of acquiring that proficiency without committing daily offences against the
law. The illegality and the difficulties attending the acquisition of the science,
dispose the examiners in some cases to relax the strictness of their examination,
and induce them, in the case of the Apothecaries Company, to dispense with
dissection altogether ; the persons to whom certificates are granted by the exa-
miners of this Company, being those who, from their numbers* and extensive
practice, ought especially, for the safety of the public, to be well instructed. The
annual number of certificates so granted exceeds 400.
The teacher of Anatomy, besides the evils which befall him in common with
the student, has to suffer others, arising also out of the state of the law, which
affect him with peculiar hardship. The obstacles which impede the study of
Anatomy in this country, are such, and the facilities presented to the study in
foreign countries are so great, that those English students who are desirous of
obtaining a thorough knowledge of the science, desert the schools at home, and
repair to those abroad. Their principal resort is to Paris, where 200 English
students of Anatomy are now pursuing their course of instruction. Dissection
probably, under these circumstances, would scarcely be followed at home, were it
not for the regulations of the College of Surgeons, which require the candidates for
the diploma of the college to have learned the practice of surgery in a recognized
school within the United Kingdom ; so that the student, during the period re-
quired for learning this practice, in order that he may the sooner become qualified
for his profession, employs a part of his time in learning also to dissect. These
disadvantages, affecting the teacher, are such, that except in the most frequented
schools, attached to the greater hospitals, few have been able to continue teach-
ing with profit, and some private teachers have been compelled to give up their
schools. To the evils enumerated it may be added, that it is distressing to men
of good education and character to be compelled to resort, for their means of
Questions, 2, 14,
15, 104, 171, 87S
Questions, 16, 90,
95- 97, 155, 179.
21», 755,963-
Questions, 38, 4a,
43, in, 112, 394,
421,422,43a, 433.
Questions, 8 to 12,
107, 165, 188,244,
277,278,279,33c,
335, 558, 588,
et seq. 840, 972,
979, 990, 1302.
Questions, 750 to 754,
960, 1280.
Questions, 758, 964.
Charter of the College
of Surgeuns, 1800.
Appendix, N° 12.
Questions, 55, 56, 233.
Appendix, N" 3, p. 125.
Questions, 1352, 1363.
Questions, 254, 255,
Question, 261, 335,
895, 896, 975, 988
Questions, 24, 248,
249, 304, 3<>7-
Question, 57, 570.
Letter, p. 55.
Appendix, N°
Questions, 412 to
416,544,949, 951
to 955-
508.
* Computed tit 10,000 in England and Wales.
A4
Appendix, p. 14*
teaching
REPORT FROM SELECT COMMITTEE
Questions, 42, 49, 133,
134, 214, 234,287,
1232.
Questions, 33, 42, 34*
to 345-
Question, 563.
Question, 1295.
Questions, 1472,
H73, 1474-
Questions, 903,
1176.
Questions, 785.
1203, 1248, 1249.
Question, 1237.
Questions, 779, 821,
1205, 1242, 1411.
Questions, 40, 142,
221, 283, 324,497,
435.956. "47. 1261
Questions, 47, 143,
1208.
Questions, 1158,
1186, 1449, 1452.
Questions, 50, 51.
Questions, 141,
175,229,347,351,
4iy,457, 811,813
to 815.
teaching, to a constant infraction of the laws of their country, and to be made
dependent, for their professional existence, on the mercenary caprices of the most
abandoned class in the community.
But it is not only to the student, while learning the rudiments of the science,
and to the teacher, while endeavouring to improve it, that dissection is necessary,
and the operation of the law injurious. It is essential also to the practitioner,
that during the whole course of his professional career he should dissect, in order
to keep up his stock of knowledge, and to practise frequently on the dead subject,
lest, by venturing to do so unskilfully on the living, he expose his patients to
imminent peril. He is required also in many important cases, civil and criminal,
to guide the judgment of judges and of jurors, and would be rebuked were he to
confess, upon any such occasion, that, from having neglected the practice of
dissection, he was unable to throw light upon a point at issue in that science which
he professed. He is liable, in a civil action, to damages for errors in practice, due
to professional ignorance ; though at the same time he may be visited with penal-
ties as a criminal, for endeavouring to take the only means of obtaining pro-
fessional knowledge.
Under these circumstances, affecting equally the student, teacher and prac-
titioner, the Committee were not surprised to find that this inquiry excited
considerable interest in all parts of the country, and that numerous petitions
from all classes of the profession, connected with the science of Anatomy, were
laid upon the table of The House, uniformly praying for an amendment of the
existing law on the subject.
But independently of the bearings of the question on the interests of medical
practitioners, and on the health of the community, the system pursued is pro-
ductive of great evil, by training up a race of men in habits eminently calculated
to debase them, and to prepare them for the commission of violent and daring
offences. The number of persons who, in London, regularly live by raising
bodies, is stated by the two police officers, examined before the Committee, not
to exceed ten ; but the number of persons, occasionally employed in the same
occupation, is stated by the same witnesses to be nearly 200. Nearly the whole
of these individuals, as is admitted by the exhumators themselves who were ex-
amined before the Committee, are occupied also in thieving, and form the most
desperate and abandoned class of the community. If, with a view to favour
Anatomy, exhumation should be allowed to continue, it appears almost a necessary
consequence that thieves also should be tolerated. It should seem useless, how-
ever, with a view to suppress exhumation, to endeavour to execute the existing
laws with increased severity, or to enact new and more rigorous ones. The
effect of interpreting and executing the laws with increasing rigour has been, not
to suppress exhumation, but to raise the price of bodies, and to increase the num-
ber of exhumators. So long as there is no legalized mode of supplying the
dissecting schools, so long the practice of disinterment will continue : but if other
measures were devised, which would legalize and ensure a regular, plentiful and
cheap supply, the practice of disinterring bodies, and of receiving them, would, of
necessity, be entirely abandoned.
Before adverting to those new methods for obtaining an adequate supply of
subjects, which have been suggested by the witnesses who have been examined
before the Committee, they will state in what manner, according to the evidence
adduced, the schools of Anatomy at Paris are provided. They have also in-
quired into the practice of some other foreign schools, for an account of which
they beg to refer to the evidence itself; and they dwell upon the practice of the
schools of Paris, because it approaches most nearly to the plan recommended by
most of the witnesses for adoption in this country.
The
ON ANATOMY
The administration of all the hospitals at Paris, since the period of the Revo-
lution, has been confided to a public board of management. The rule at the hos-
pitals is, that every patient who dies shall be attended by a priest, and that,
after the performance of the usual ceremonies of the Catholic church, the body
shall be removed from the chapel, attached to the hospital, to the dead room,
and there remain for twenty-four hours, if not sooner claimed by the relatives.
Bodies may be examined after death, by the medical officers attached to a hospital,
in order to ascertain the cause of death ; but may not be dissected by them.
A body, if claimed by the friends after examination, is sewed up in a clean cloth,
before being delivered to them. If not claimed within twenty-four hours after
death, after being enveloped in a cloth in a similar manner, it, is sent, in the
manner hereafter described, to one of the dissecting schools.
There are no private dissecting schools at Paris, but two public ones ; that of
the Ecole de la Medicine, and that adjoining the Hopital de la Pitie. These are
supplied exclusively from the different hospitals and from the institutions for main-
taining paupers, the supply from certain of these establishments being appropriated
to one school, and that from the remaining establishments to the other.
The distribution of subjects to the two schools is confided to a public officer,
the Chef des travaux Anatomiques. He causes them to be conveyed from the
hospitals, at an early hour, in a covered carriage, so constructed as not to attract
notice, to a building at the schools, set apart for that purpose. They are then
distributed by the prosecteurs to the students ; and, after dissection, being again
enveloped in cloth, are conveyed to the nearest place of interment.
The students at the Ecole de la Medicine consist of voting men who have dis-
tinguished themselves at a public examination, though the person at the head of
the establishment is also allowed to admit pupils to dissect. The school of
la Pitie" is open to students of all nations, who, on entering themselves, may be
supplied with as many subjects as they require, at a price varying, according to
the state in which the body is, from 3 to 12 francs; priority of choice, however,
being given to the Aleves internes of the different hospitals, and the subjects being
delivered to them at a reduced price. English surgeons were here permitted,
until lately, to engage private rooms for the purpose of lecturing on Anatomv to
students of their own nation, and to superintend their labours in the dissecting
room. From the protection and facilities which have thus been afforded to the
study of Anatomy at Paris, it has become the resort of the medical students of
all nations; the practice of exhumation is wholly unknown, and the feelings of
the people appear not to be violated.
It is the opinion of almost all the witnesses, that the adoption in this country
of a plan, similar in most respects to that which prevails in France, would afford
a simple and adequate remedy for the existing evils. They recommend that the
bodies of those who during life have been maintained at the public charge, and
lvho die in workhouses, hospitals and other charitable institutions, should, if not
claimed by next of kin within a certain time after death, be given up, under pro-
per regulations, to the Anatomist ; and some of the witnesses would extend the
same rule to the unclaimed bodies of those who die in prisons, penitentiaries, and
other places of confinement. In the hospitals which supply subjects to the
Anatomical schools of France and Italy, religious rites are paid to the dead, before
giving up the bodies for dissection : in the plan proposed for this country^ most
of the witnesses recommend that the performance of religious rites should be
deferred until after dissection, and they are anxious that the Anatomist should be
required, under adequate securities, or a system of effective superintendence, to
cause to be administered, at his own expense, to the bodies which he dissects, re-
ligious solemnities and the usual rites of burial.
5f»8. B The
■ 509.
Question, 513, 637.
Question, 514,604.
Question, 512.
Question, 604.
Questions, 4 "6,509,
on, 514-
Question, 630.
Questions,48i,5ii.
Letter p. 55.
Qufc3lions,473,774,
495-
Question, 605.
Question, 4S0.
Questions, 482,511,
515, 605.
Letter p. 55.
■ 483,605.
Qaestions.4-j3.605.
Questions, 580 to
5 12, >; ;;■
Letter p. 55.
Questions, 5S4, 634.
Questions, 519, 583,
■ I lU:r,p.56.
220, 498,
499-
Question, 488.
Questions, 84, 487,491,
; (3,531.
Question, 633.
3>3. 505,
Questions,5i6,568.
Question, 496.
Question, 526.
Questions, 127, 130,
172, 173,178,2x8,
■■■ mS.5, 394,
455, 624,625, 846,
924, 980, 1373.
1436, and Appen-
dix, N0' 1,2,3,4, 5,
*5,7,8,9,i9.
Question?, 356,500,
506, 982, 1409.
Questions,
O37. /to.
13,604,
1230.
Questions, 79, 98, 99,
1011, 102, 211, 642, 847
899. 921, &68, 969,
1436-
Questions, 77, 930, 946,
1433.1439,1457,M58.
Questions, 77, 132, 2ti,
290,427,465,629,846.
920, 1178, 1230, 1436,
H ;;■ 1470.
REPORT RROM SELECT COMMITTEE
Appendix, p. 1.
Question, 506.
Questions, 141.
229-347,35i,
Questions, 500,
1151, 1152, 1183,
1373-
Questions, 63, 123,
Questions, 8
1419,1430.
Questions, 63,
208.
Questions, 1133,
»137, 1215.
Questions, 1 13!:
1141.
Questions, 12 8, 130,
148, 149,310,311,
844.891, 906,983.
Quesiions,9i7,935,
936, 1461.
The plan proposed 1ms this essential circumstance to recommend it — that pro-
vided it were carried into effect, it would yield a supply of subjects that, in London
at least, would be adequate to the wants of the Anatomist. The number of
Anatomical students resorting annually to London, and the number of subjects
with which they ought to be supplied, have been already stated. It appears from
the returns obtained by the Committee from 1 27 of the parishes situate in London,
Westminster and Southwark, or their immediate vicinity, that out of 3,744 persons
who died in the workhouses of these parishes in the year 1827, 3,103 were buried
at the parish expense ; and that of these, about 1,108 were not attended to their
graves by any relations. There are many parishes in and around London from which
at the time of making this Report returns had not been delivered in ; but it may be
inferred from those returns which have been procured, that the supply to be ob-
tained, from this source alone, would be many times greater than that now
obtained by disinterment; that when added to the supply to be derived from
those other sources which have been pointed out, it would be more than com-
mensurate to the wants of the student, and consequently, that the plan, if adopted,
as meeting the exigencies of the case, would eventually be the means of suppressing
the practice of exhumation.
If it be an object deeply interesting to the feelings of the community that the
remains of friends and relations should rest undisturbed, — that object can only be
effected by giving up for dissection a certain portion of the whole, in order to pre-
serve the remainder from disturbance. Exhumation is condemned as seizing its
objects indiscriminately, as, in consequence, exciting apprehensions in the minds
of the whole community, and as outraging in the highest degree, when discovered,
the feelings of relations. If selection then be necessary, what bodies ought to be
selected but the bodies of those, who have either no known relations whose
feelings would be outraged, or such only as, by not claiming the body, would evince
indifference on the subject of dissection. It may be argued, perhaps, that the
principle of selection, according to the plan proposed, is not just, as it would not
affect equally all classes of the public ; since the bodies to be chosen would, neces-
sarily, be those of the poor only. To this it may be replied ; 1st, — that even
were the force of this objection to a certain degree admitted, yet that, to judge
fairlv of the plan, its inconveniences must be compared with those of the existing
system ; which system, according to the evidence adduced, is liable in a great
measure to the same objection ; since the bodies exhumated are principally those
of the poor ; 2dly, — that the evils of this, or of any other plan to be proposed on
this subject, must be judged of by the distress which it would occasion to the
feelings of surviving relations ; and the unfairness to one or another class of the
community, — by the degree of distress inflicted on one class rather than another ;
but where there are no relations to suffer distress, there can be no inequality of
suffering, and consequently no unfairness shown to one class more than another.
One or two of the witnesses, who appear to be either favorable, or not opposed
to the principle of the plan, speak with doubt of its success, as though it would
be found impracticable to reconcile the public to its introduction : and one, in
particular, apprehends that religious feelings may impede its adoption. An ob-
jection founded on religious feelings, does not apply to the plan in question only,
but would be equally valid, generally, against all dissection whatsoever; and
should lead those who urge it, consistently with their own principles, to endea-
vour to put down altogether the study of practical Anatomy.
Though it may be true that the public are, to a certain degree, averse to dissec-
tion, yet it is satisfactory to find several of the witnesses adducing facts to prove that
those feelings of aversion are on the decline. They state, that in those parish
infirmaries where the bodies of those who die are examined, as the practice has
become
ON ANATOMY.
become common, it has been viewed with less jealousy : that in those hospitals
where a similar rule prevails, neither patients themselves are deterred from apply-
ing for admission, nor their relatives on their behalf: that the addition of public
dissecting-rooms to hospitals, has not produced any diminution in the number of
applications for relief within the walls of those hospitals ; and that, by reasoning
with the friends of those who die, and by explaining to them how important it is
to the art of healing, that examination should take place after death, they may
usually be brought to consent to the bodies of their friends being examined.
Hence it is argued, that in involving the subject of dissection in mystery, as has
hitherto been the case, the public have been treated injudiciously ; that with
proper precautions, and the light of public discussion to guide them, they may be
made to perceive the importance of the study generally, and the reasonableness of
the particular measure now contemplated, and that when they come to regard
it as the means of suppressing exhumation, they will receive it with favour, and
finally acquiesce in it,
The legislative measure which most of the witnesses are desirous of, in order to
enable them to carry the plan into effect, is the repeal of any existing law, which
would subject to penalties those, who might be concerned in carrying the proposed
plan into execution : they wish for an enactment, permissive and not mandatory,
declaring that it shall not be deemed illegal for the governors of workhouses, &c.
and for Anatomists, the former to dispose of, the latter to receive and to dissect,
the bodies of those dying in such workhouses, &c. such bodies not having been
claimed, within a time to be specified, by any immediate relations, and due pro-
vision being made for the invariable performance of funeral rites. Some few of
the witnesses, indeed, who state that they wish for the success of the plan, con-
template any legislative interference whatever in this matter with apprehension ;
but they do not appear to have been aware how nearly the cases decided by the
courts of law, and already adverted to, would apply to persons engaged in exe-
cuting the plan in question. In those cases, the bodies for the non-burying of
which the defendants were severally convicted, were those of a pauper who died
in a workhouse, and of a person who had suffered death as a felon. If these
cases apply, as it appears they do, to persons engaged in giving up or in receiv-
ing, for other purposes than for burial, the bodies of the inmates of workhouses or
of prisons, such impediments to the success of the plan, tannot be removed, as
these witnesses think they might be, simply by the favorable interference of the
executive Government, however disposed to show indulgence to the profession ;
but an Act of the legislature can alone provide a remedy.
Amongst the measures that have been suggested for lessening the dislike of the
public to dissection, is that of repealing the clause of the Act of Geo. II. which
directs that the bodies of murderers shall be given up to be anatomized. It ap-
pears from the returns already -laid before the Hottse, that, as regards the direct
operation of this clause, on the supply of subjects, the number which it yields to
the Anatomist is so small in comparison of his total wants, that the inconvenience
which he would sustain from its repeal would be wholly unimportant. As to its
remote operation, almost the whole of the witnesses examined before the Com-
mittee, and of those whose written communications will be found in the Appendix,
are of opinion, that the clause in question, by attaching to dissection the mark of
ignominy, increases the dislike of the public to Anatomy, and they therefore are
desirous that the clause should be repealed.
The Committee would be very unwilling to interfere with any penal enactment
which might have, or seem to have, a tendency to prevent the commission of
atrocious crimes ; but as it may be reasonably doubted whether the dread of
dissection can be reckoned amongst the obstacles to the perpetration of such
crimes, and as it is manifest that the clause in question must create a strong and
568. B 2 mischievous
387,983. "34. "35.
Questions, 197,198,274,
275, 1048 to 1054.
Questions, 906, 907,
983, i°55-
Questions,H9, 469,
9G5, 966; 984-
Questions, 216, 239,
500, 624, 629, 938,
1174, 1178, 1179> 123°.
1434 to 1456, 1459,
1462,
Questions, 81, 131,
208,303,348,456,
549, 624, 847, 937-
Questions,878, 885.
Rex v Young, and
Rex v. Cunriick.
Questions, 883, 1210,
1211, 1212.
Questions, 44, 45, 46,
Sessional Paper of
1 8-28, N° 143, pp. 9,
'7-
Questions, 58,
120, I96, '2-27, 238,
290, 346, 364, 387,
420,431,547,846,
S72, 888, 925,942,
961, 981, 1182,
'309, 1373, & Ap-
pendix, Inos 1,3, 4,
6, 7, 10.
Questions,
I-1
REPORT FROM SELECT COMMITTEE
mischievous prejudice against the practice of Anatomy, the Committee think
themselves justified in concluding, that more evil than good results from its
continuance.
The Committee consider that they would imperfectly discharge their duties,
if they did not state their conviction of the importance to the public interests of
the subject of their inquiries. As the members of the profession are well educated,
so is their ability increased to remove or alleviate human suffering. As the
science of Anatomy has improved, many operations formerly thought necessary
have been altogether dispensed with ; most of those retained have been rendered
more simple, and many new ones have been performed, to the saving of the lives
of patients, which were formerly thought impossible. To neglect the practice of
dissection, would lead to the greatest aggravation of human misery ; since
Anatomy, if not learned by that practice, must be learned by mangling the living.
Though all classes are deeply interested in affording protection to the study of
Anatomy, yet the poor and middle classes are the most so ; they will be the most
benefited by promoting it, and the principal sufferers by discouraging it. The
rich, when they require professional assistance, can afford to employ those who
have acquired the reputation of practising successfully. It is on the poor that
the inexperienced commence their practice, and it is to the poor that the
practice of the lower order of practitioners is confined. It is, therefore, for the
interest of the poor especially, that professional education should be rendered
70,971, 98810993, c]ieap and 0f eaSy attainment; that the lowest order of practitioners (which is
the most numerous), and the students on their first entry into practice, may
be found well instructed in the duties of their profession.
Questions, 5,0,35'j
354-
Questions,i7-<97.">
Questions, 14, iP.
Question, 1 10.
Questions, 19, 191
S5t,353.387,897
Questions, 89*
Such, on an attentive consideration of the Evidence adduced, is the deliberate
judgment of the Committee on the matters submitted to them ; and it now
remains for The House to consider whether it will not be expedient to introduce,
in the course of the ensuing Session, some legislative measure, which may give
effect to the recommendations contained in the present Report.
22 July 1828.
SELECT COMMITTEE ON ANATOMY.
*3
LIST OF WITNESSES.
Lunae, 280 die Aprilis, 1828.
Sir Astley Confer, Bail. - - -. p. 14
Benjamin Collins Erodie, Esq. - 23
Jo/«( Abcmcthy, Esq. .... 28
William Laurence, Esq. - - - - 33
Jovis, i°die M;ij, 182.8.
Henri/ Field, Esq. ----- p. 35
Joseph Henry Green, Esq. - - - 36
'Cesar Ifasrkius, Esq. - - - - 39
Herbert Mayo, Esq. ----- 42
Dr. James Paterson ----- 43
Richard Dugard Grainger, Esq. - 45
Dr. James Somervil/e, - - - - 47
James Edward Bennett, Esq. - - 52
Veneris, 20 die Maij, 1828.
Dr. Daniel Harry ----- ]i. 56
James Richard Bennett, Esq. - - 6]
Dr. Gustav Himly ----- 62
James Moncrie/F Arnot, Esq. - - 64
Dr. Gactano Negri ----- 60
Granville Sharp Pattison, Esq. - 67
^. B. --------- 70
Di. John IVc^tcr 73
Luna-, 50 die Maij, 1S2S.
-David Gale Amolt, Esq. - - - p. 75
Sir //wry Ha/ford, m. d. - - - 76
Thomas Rose, Esq. ----- p. 78
Peregrine Fernandez, Esq. - - 80
Joshua Brookes, Esq. - - - - Si
Granville Sharp Pattisoii, Esq. - 83
Dr. Southreood Smith - - - - 85
Lnntc, 12° die Maij, 1828.
./(i//// Watson, Esq. ----- p. 87
Benjamin Harrison, Esq. - - - 88
Thomas Halls, Esq. ----- 03
Samuel TzeyJ'ord, Esq. - - - - 96
William Ballantyne and Thomas
Richlicll, Esqrs. ----- 100
James Glennan and Richard Pople 104
Mercurij, 14" die Maij, 1S28.
Dr. James Macartney - - - - p. 106
Veneris, 160 die Maij, 182S.
Thomas Il'ah/ei/, Est]. - - - - p. 112
Edmund Beljbur, Esq. - - - - 117
CD. --. u8
Veneris, 23°dic Maij, 182S.
F. G. - - p. no
Mr. Jlilliam Alduus - - - - - 120
Mr. Richard Spike - - . - - ibid.
JE. Laurence, Esq. ----- 122
568.
B3
i4 MINUTES OF EVIDENCE TAKEN BEFORE
MINUTES OF EVIDENCE.
Luna, '28° die Aprilis, 1828.
HENRY WARBURTON, ESQUIRE,
IN THE CIIAJK.
Sir Astky Cooper, Bart, called in ; and Examined.
Sir Asthy Cooper, i- \^GU are President of the Royal College. of Surgeons, and have been for
Bart. X many years teacher of anatomy and surgery at Guy's and St. Thomas's
' ^ — ■ ' Hospitals, and surgeon to Guy's Hospital ? — Yes.
'" '^P" 2. What is your opinion as to the necessity of dissection, both for teaching what is
actually known in anatomy, and for the further improvement of that science? — I
should reply, that without dissection there can be no anatomy, and that anatomy is
our polar star, for, without anatomy a surgeon can do nothing, certainly nothing
well.
._. „ .... , 3. Do you think the opinion of Dr. Baillie correct, who states in his posthumous lec-
Posthumous Works ture on medicine and surgery, — " If then anatomy be of so much use in physic and in
p. 87. surgery, it ought to Lie earnestly cultivated by those who really wish to understand their
profession and to become respectable in it; this is not a trifling matter, justice and
humanity require every exertion where the lives of our fellow-creatures are con-
cerned ; there are many professions where negligence or inattention may be reckoned
a fault, but in ours it is a crime ?" — I certainly concur in that sentiment.
Idem, p. 88. 4- Doctor Baillie also states in a further passage, " Anatomy cannot be learnt
without the employment of the knife upon the dead body, that great basis on which
we are to build the knowledge that is to guide us in distributing life and health to
our fellow creatures; need I say more to influence men of conscience and humanity
Idem, pp. 87, 88. to be zealous and industrious."' He further states, " the parts of the animal body
are so numerous and complicated, that in order to be retained in the memory, they
require a strong impression ; this cannot be made by the eye alone, the eye is quick
and so impatient as to run over a number of objects in a short time ; it is therefore
necessary, that the hand should be employed to confine the wandering of the eye,
and to attach it for a sufficient length of time to one object ; it is for this reason
that lectures by themselves never did make or ever can make a good anatomist."
Do you concur in that? — In those sentiments I entirely concur, and every medical
man must accord.
5. Are not many operations now performed in consequence of the increased know-
ledge of dissection, that were formerly thought too difficult? — With respect to
operations, I wish to state, that if Mr. Hunter, who was the father of modern sur-
gery, were at this moment to rise from the grave, he would not believe in the
improvements which have taken place since his death, which occurred 34 years
ago; and if you ask for an illustration of this, I will mention an instance: a man,
when I was first at St. Thomas's Hospital, which was in the year 1784, used to
exhibit himself and receive money from the students for the exhibition, because he
was one of those remarkable persons who had recovered from an operation for what
surgeons call popliteal aneurism, which disease arises from the giving way of an
artery in the ham, and for which it is required that the artery of the thigh should
be tied ; this man had the artery tied, and recovered. At the present moment there
is not an individual who is educated in London, who would not be ashamed of
himself if he could not perform that operation, or tie any of the accessible arteries
in the body. Surgery is also improved in the diminution of operations, for at the
time at which I first entered the profession, I should say there were at least three
operations for one at the present moment ; at that time, a man who had an injury
to
SELECT COMMITTEE ON ANATOMY. *$
to his head, was very generally trephined ; but now that operation is rarely per- Sir Astku Cooper,
formed. At that time limbs were amputated for compound dislocations, but now ^ Bart,
very rarely.
6. To what do you ascribe that diminution of operations, to an increased knowledge ""1828.
of the anatomy of the parts ? — To the inspection of the dead leading to the know-
ledge of the changes which parts have undergone from accident or disease, and in
this way the surgeon has been taught the impropriety of his ancestor's practice.
7. What is the demonstrator expected to teach the pupils who enter the schools for
dissection ; is it not the economy, structure and functions of the differents parts of
the body, and how to perform on the dead body the best known surgical operations?
— With respect to that question, the term demonstrator does not exactly apply,
there is a difference between a demonstrator and a lecturer ; the proper duty of the
demonstrator is to attend the pupil for the purpose of giving him information in
the dissecting room, but the lecturer communicates his information in the theatre;
all that ought to be expected of a demonstrator is, that he should tell the pupils the
names and uses of the parts which are exposed in his dissections.
8. In any part of the course which a student is now expected to go through, is he
instructed how to perform upon a dead body, the principal of those operations which
in the common course of practice, he may be required to perform upon the living ?
—He is not only shown the mode of performing different operations, but whenever
subjects can be obtained for the purpose, it is considered that it is his duly to perform
the operations himself upon the dead body.
1). Can bodies be obtained in such numbers at present, that it frequently happens
that the students have an opportunity of performing those operations upon a dead
body ? — It now very rarely happens that a student can obtain a body for the purpose
of performing operations, and there is a lecturer in London wno will be probably
examined by this Committee, who has been unable to obtain a body to exhibit opera-
tions upon the dead, for a great number of days.
1 0. Can you state at all, how many bodies have been used in teaching the pupil how
to perform operations upon the dead body, that is, in the hospital-schools in Lon-
don, in the course of the year r — I am afraid there have been scarcely any lately used
by the students, but at all events very few, on account of the great difficulty in obtain-
ing them.
l 1 . You nevertheless would consider that an essential part of a good course of sur-
gical instruction ? — My opinion is, not only that no person should practise surgery
without privately performing all the operations upon the dead, but that he should also
exhibit his powers of operating upon the dead, in the presence of a great number of
individuals.
12. Can the young practitioner be expected to possess the necessary courage in
performing a difficult operation on the living, if he has not already been taught topper-
form a similar operation upon a dead body? — lie must be a blockhead if he made
the attempt, and the practice of the most sensible and the most expert surgeons in
London has been to visit the receptacles for the dead, for the purpose of performing
the operation which they were about to execute upon the living, if the operations
were in the least novel.
13. Is it in the dissecting room or in the theatre, that the pupils are principally
taught the morbid structure of bodies in different stages of disease? — The morbid
changes are principally shown in the theatre, but they are also investigated in the
dissecting room.
14. Can a student know when to cut with freedom, when with caution, and when not
at all, if he has not an intimate knowledge of the structure. of every part of the human
body?— I would not remain in a room with a man who attempted to perform an
operation in surgery, who was unacquainted with anatomy, unless he would be di-
rected by others ; he must mangle the living, if he has not operated on the dead.
51 . Can a competent knowledge of Anatomy be obtained by substituting for the dead
body, casts or models? — It is impossible, because a knowledge of Anatomy consists
not only in being acquainted with the names of things, but with their relative situa-
tion, and relative situation cannot be taught by casts or by models, in papier mach^e.
1 6. Can you state whether the examiners of the candidates for diplomas at the
Surgeons College, have observed any important difference in the qualifications of
56& B 4 the
i6 MINUTES OF EVIDENCE TAKEN BEFORE
the diflercnt candidates, according as they come from schools where facilities are
given to dissection, or from those where great difficulties arc interposed? — In
answer to that question I have to inform the Committee, that it frequently happens
at the Royal College of Surgeons, that we have to deplore that men are obliged to
he rejected on account of their imperfect information, and it is the more to be
regretted that it is often not the fault of the individual, for he has taken all the pains
thai could be required of him, but it unfortunately arises from the parents having
mistakenly entered their children with persons who, either on account of the
expense of Anatomy, or from the difficulties in obtaining bodies, are really unable
to instruct those who become their pupils; and at the last meeting but one at the
Royal College of Surgeons, we were under the necessity of rejecting a man, into
whose character we afterwards enquired, and we found he had been a very indus-
trious student ; but when he was asked the situation of an important part of the
body he had never seen that part, and he did not seem to know of its existence, he
was not at any rate informed of its situation, and he was obliged to be rejected upon
this ground. It was found that he had never seen the part, either in the dead
body or in a preparation. The result is extremely painful to our feelings, for we
are punishing the sins of the father upon the child, we are doing that which the
young person does not deserve, because he has industriously studied his profession
as far as his opportunities permitted, and yet we are obliged to reject him because
opportunities have not been furnished to him of learning his profession, and he
would become a curse to the public.
1 7. Without requiring you to specify what the schools are, the Committee ask you
■whether you have reason to suppose that there are schools in London, either attached
to hospitals or private establishments, where an endeavour has been made to sub-
stitute models and easts for the actual body in teaching Anatomy ? — I cannot answer
that question from my own experience ; I have heard so ; I know there is an immense
difference in the number of bodies dissected in different schools ; that in some schools
there are scarcely any bodies dissected ; that in others, where there is an equal num-
ber of pupils, there will be twenty or thirty bodies dissected during the season.
lS. If Anatomy is learned from the study of the human frame, and is not learned
by dissecting the dead body, must it not be learned by operating on the living? —
Decidedly ; and that quest-ion I wish to speak to in the following manner. The
cause which you gentlemen are now supporting, is not our cause, but your's ; yon
must employ medical men, whether they be ignorant or informed ; but if you have
none but ignorant medical men, it is you who suffer from it ; and the fact is, that the
want of subjects will very soon lead to your becoming the unhappy victims of
operations founded and performed in ignorance.
ig. If the attainment of Anatomy is rendered difficult and expensive, who will be
the principal sufferers, the rich or the poor? — That is a question very difficult to
answer, upon this ground, that perhaps, if there are not opportunities of obtain-
ing a sufficient supply of bodies in England, persons may go to the continent and
acquire information there at a considerable expense, and when they return they may
be the persons selected by the rich to attend them ; the evil will then certainly fall
upon the poor. I conceive that ignorance in the profession must be very much felt
by the poor, because the rich will have those who have the reputation of being the
best informed ; but if education is to be confined to our own country, in the present
difficulties in Anatomy, the rich and poor must both become the victims of the ig-
norant and unskilful surgeon.
20. What is the number of schools in Anatomy, as taught in London?- — Ten or
eleven.
21. Will you specify them ?— Guy's Hospital, St. Thomas's Hospital, Mr. Grainger,
the London Hospital, St. Bartholomew's Hospital, the school of Mr. Tyrrell in
Aldersgate-street, the school in Windmill-street, the schools of Mr. Carpue, Mr.
Bennett, Mr. Dermott, and Mr. Sleigh.
22. Your answer includes those attached to hospitals, and the private establish-
ments of individuals?— Yes ; I believe I have mentioned all, excepting Mr. Tuson.
23. Can you state what is the number of pupils in Anatomy attending all those
different schools in London ? — I believe about 700.
24. Would not the number be considerably greater than 700, if the difficulties now
attending the study of anatomy were removed? — Decidedly so ; for all those obliged
to go abroad to gain instruction, would remain in England.
25. General
SELECT COMMITTEE ON ANATOMY. 17
' 25. General practitioners, for instance, who do not take out their diploma from the Sir Astky Cooper,
College of Surgeons, would more frequently go through a course of dissection if the Bart-
expense were considerably lessened ? — Yes, probably they would occasionally dissect ; v"'"["~
but if a man does not study Anatomy when he is young, he very rarely, after he is kr '
settled, acquires any substantial anatomical knowledge.
26. Can you state what is the number of bodies that on an average each pupil
ought to dissect, in the course of a season of sixteen months, to study Anatomy in
a competent manner? — If he be afterwards to practise surgery, I should say three
bodies are required, two for anatomical purposes, the other for operations on the
dead; less would be insufficient ; for a half-anatomist is a most dangerous surgeon.
27. Can you state what is the number of bodies actually dissected now at the dif-
ferent schools in the course of a season ? — I have taken pains on the subject, and
I think 450, or thereabouts.
28. The number therefore actually dissected is very considerably less than the
number which you would consider sufficient for a complete course of anatomical
instruction for that number of pupils? — Yes, very considerably less.
29. In what manner is it generally understood that the bodies obtained for the
dissecting schools are obtained ? — By exhumation principally.
30. What is the present price of a subject? — Eight guineas.
31. At what do you remember it to have been formerly ? — When I entered the
profession it was two guineas ; since that period it has been fourteen.
32. At one period had not one person the complete control and monopoly of the
whole supply for the profession ? — Yes.
33. Can you state any thing particular relating to the conduct of that person in
raising the price ? — The fact was, that the anatomists of London were completely at
the feet of the resurrection men ; an individual possessing considerable talents, who
the moment he was opposed by others, burst into the places in which bodies were
contained, and spoiled them for dissection, and did not hesitate to commit bur-
glarious acts for that purpose ; or if there was a party of persons disposed to oppose
him, he excited a riot against those individuals, and pointed them out as bad charac-
ters and as resurrection men ; and the magistrates in the Borough were under the
necessity very often of settling those differences ; the result of which was the
present expense of dissection, because it was impossible to compete with a clever
fellow, who was also a man of property; and this man therefore had the power of
raising the price of subjects as he pleased, and of obliging one lecturer and opposing
another.
34. Since the time when this person flourished, has not the difficulty arising out of
one gang opposing another occasioned an increase of price? — The possibility of
obtaining a supply of bodies from London burial grounds is almost destroyed.
35. Have you heard of any understanding existing between the persons who carry
on these practices and the sextons or other parish officers ? — The sextons and grave-
diggers are always in pay, as far as I have heard ; indeed, I have no idea of their
being able to procure a body, except occasionally, without it ; it is true that a man
may go to a church-yard and take a body, and leave the grave disturbed till the
gravedigger views it in the morning ; but he cannot take a body without the grave-
digger being informed of it, or suspecting it.
36. If any of the persons who are engaged in those practices, are detected, is not
a demand made upon the surgeon for paying- the law expenses, and supporting
them in case of their being imprisoned ?— Some allowance is made to them in
prison ; but at the present moment two surgeons are bailing a man at the expense
of 100/. who has been detected in exhumation.
37. You have already stated that bodies are not to be had in the quantity necessary
for instruction, by the process of exhumation ? — Certainly they are not.
38. Are not the lecturers frequently now obliged to wait for bodies before they can
proceed with their course? — At the present moment I learn that it is so ; it has
very very frequently happened so to myself, to be obliged to alter the order of my
course on this account.
39. Has not the difficulty been for a series of years on the increase ? — For a series
of years it has been on the increase.
40. What observations have vou been led to make on the characters of the exhu-
56S. C mators,
»8 MINUTES OF EVIDENCE TAKEN BEFORE
Sir^silfv Cooper, mators, and what do you understand to be their ordinary occupations ? — The lowest
Mart. dregs of degradation; I do not know that I can describe them better ; there is no crime
— — — — ' they would not commit, and as to myself, if they would imagine that I should make
28 April a good subject, they really would not have the smallest scruple, if they could do the
l828- thing undiscovered, to make a subject of me.
41. Do you understand, that with regard to those persons, exhumation is not their
sole mode of livelihood? — With many it certainly is not.
42. Do not those persons exercise great power in preventing occasionally the lec-
turers at the regular schools from obtaining any supply whatever, according as they
may happen to be in favour or disfavour?— Yes ; if they refuse to give them the
fees they demand, they refuse a supply, and, as I before stated, the teacher is at
their mercy.
43. And obliged frequently in consequence to suspend his course? — He has been
sometimes obliged entirely to suspend his course, but that has never happened to
myself, but I have changed its order.
44. Has the Secretary for the Home Department, both in the present and late
government, shown every indulgence in his power to the gentlemen of the profession
engaged in teaching anatomy ?— Nothing can have exceeded the discretion, the
kindness and anxiety of Mr. Peel on the subject, and I ought also to say, that the
Marquis of Lansdowne has behaved in the kindest manner, and done all that he
discreetly could, to relieve us from the difficulties under which we labour, and which
impede the progress of science, and will soon render the profession a curse, instead
of a blessing.
45. What means do you apprehend are within the command of the Secretary for the
Home Department, in mitigating, as far as in him lies, the difficulties under which
you labour ?— Under his immediate control, I believe only the hulks and convict
ships.
46. Are the Committee to understand, by your expressions, " discretion, kindness
and anxiety," that the Secretary is disposed to execute the law towards the teachers of
Anatomy, in case of detection, in the most lenient manner possible ? Mr. Peel has
shown the strongest disposition to advance the science and the best interests of the
profession, when he could effect it without hurting the feelings of the living
47- If the persons engaged in exhumation are to be tolerated with a view to favour
the supply of the dissecting schools, does not such toleration imply the winking at
a class of men of the most depraved character? — Undoubtedly ; yet there °are
exceptions.
48. Does not the practice of exhumation, as being revolting to the feeling of the
public, tend to increase their dislike to dissection generally ?— It is one great cause
of that dislike. b
49. Is it not distressing to men of character and education, as the teachers in the
schools of Anatomy are, to be obliged to have recourse to a violation of the law,
in order to obtain a supply of bodies and perform their duty towards their pupils ?—
The great difficulty teachers have to contend with, is the management of those
persons, and it is distressing to our feelings that we are obliged to employ very
very faulty agents to obtain a desirable end.
5u- Does the state of the law actually prevent the teachers of Anatomy from
obtaining the body of any person which, in consequence of some peculiarity of
structure, they may be particularly desirous of procuring ?— The law does not prevent
our obtaining the body of an individual if we think proper ; for there is no person
let his situation in life be what it may, whom, if I were disposed to dissect, I could
not obtain.
Si. If you are willing to pay a price sufficiently high, you can always obtain the
body of any md.v.dual r-lhe law only enhances the price, and does not prevent
thesubeUtnatl°n; y ^ SeCUred by the kW' ** °nly adds t0 the Price of
52. What have professional men generally understood to be the law on the subject
of receiving into their possession, for the purpose of dissection, the bodies of persons
who have been disinterred ; have they known that for so doing they were liable to
an inchctment for a misdemeanor ?— Until I read the charge of Baron Hullock
I did not understand that a surgeon was exposed to any danger from dissection^
therefore
SELECT COMMITTEE ON ANATOMY. 19
therefore I have never concealed dissection in my own house. I had a room in my sir AstiaJ cUOper,
own house in the City, in which it was very well known that dissections were Bart
conducted ; I did not then know that I was amenable to the law, but now I should v ><=:
be afraid to have a body in my possession. ^isi's'1
53. Have the gentlemen of the profession been aware that the only bodies legally
liable to dissection in this country, were the bodies of those persons who have
been executed for murder ? — We did not consider, until of late, that it was a misde-
meanor to have a body in our possession.
54. Is it not the practice of the magistrates to issue search warrants in case of any
complaint being made, that a body, which has been disinterred, is at a dissecting
room ? — They have the power of doing so.
55. Are candidates required by the College of Surgeons, before they receive their
diplomas, to have attended anatomical lectures and themselves to have practised
operations on dead bodies ? — They must bring certificates of their having attended
three courses of anatomical lectures and dissections.
56. Should you be disinclined to give that diploma unless you were well informed
that the candidate had performed anatomical operations ? — Undoubtedly, unless he
brought certificates of his having attended three courses of anatomical lectures and
dissections, he would not be permitted to practice ; and he ought to have operated
upon the dead.
57. Have you any idea of the number of Englishmen studying surgery in the foreign
schools ? — It is very difficult to ascertain precisely, but there are about 1 50 in Paris.
58. What is your opinion of the policy of giving up the bodies of murderers for dis-
section, as it affects the feelings of the public on the subject of dissection ? — The law
enforcing the dissection of murderers, is the greatest stigma on Anatomy which it
receives, and is extremely injurious to science.
59. Do you know whether it is considered as compulsory on the surgeons, after
they have received the body from the sheriff, to dissect it, or whether it is optional ?
— It is optional only.
60. The objections you have made to the dissection of murderers, would also apply
to the dissection of suicides, in case, by any alteration of the law, their bodies also
were to be given up for dissection ? — I conceive the great principle on this question
is this, that dissection should never outrage the feelings of the living ; if therefore a
surgeon could gain possession of the bodies of suicides, it would certainly distress
the feelings of their relatives, and on that ground there is a great objection to it ; in
the second place, I would say, they would make very bad subjects, because all
persons who die suddenly, become soon putrid ; and in the third, if it had any
moral tendency in preventing suicides, it would soon destroy any supply from that
source.
61 . What is the number of unclaimed persons dying in the hospitals in London ? —
I believe that at least between 20 and 30 persons die in the winter and spring, in
every hospital in London, containing 400 beds, who are unclaimed by their relations.
62. Do you believe that such unclaimed bodies might be rendered available for
anatomical purposes? — That will depend upon the circumstance of the treasurer or
governors being men of sense or not. As no person's feelings would be outraged,
there would be no reasonable objection to it.
63. Is the number of unclaimed you have mentioned the usual average?— It is
my belief that it is below the average ; and most certainly, that in the proportion at
least which I have stated, bodies are unclaimed.
64. What do you understand to be the practice in the army and navy hospitals? —
They inspect bodies, but I believe they do not dissect them, from what I have learned.
65. The hospital at Chatham for instance r* — There they dissect, and make pre-
parations ; for I have seen a collection there, made from such bodies.
66. Are any bodies obtained by purchase from the living before death ? — Yes ; but
very rarely.
67. Is it the practice to bury the remains?— Yes, the remains are buried.
68. You are aware that you cannot enforce any such bargain; as the body of a dead
person is considered by the law the property of no one ? — We are so well informed on
that point, that a surgeon would very rarely make such a bargain, and if a person
were to offer his body" to me, I should turn a deaf ear to him.
6.). What can you state as to the supply that may be obtained by importing dead
* 568. C 2 bodies
Sir Astlni C
20 MINUTES OF EVIDENCE TAKEN BEFORE
bodies either tYom Ireland or from the Continent ? — Unless there was some betteT
lia't. "" mode than that which is at present adopted, importation would furnish a very small
— .^ ' and insufficient supply ; but I conceive, that perhaps a director of Anatomy might be
28 April appointed by the Secretary of State, who should be enabled to receive bodies at the
,828' custom house ; otherwise importation would give such an opportunity for smuggling,
that I think there would be very considerable objection to that mode of supply.
70. What are the principal difficulties now interposed in the way of obtaining bodies
bv importation? — The time required to bring them, so that the body will be in an
unfit state ; and the doubt of its passing the Custom-house either abroad or at
home.
71. Do you happen to be aware, that the greater number of the bodies which have
actually been imported, have arrived in such a state that very few of them were fit
for the dissecting room ? — I understand that to be the case, but there are means of
preparing bodies so as to enable them to last for a very considerable time.
72. So that if a system for importing bodies could be organized, to a certain degree
under the protection of government, you think that difficulty might in some measure
be surmounted ? — It would be a very desirable mode of supply, and I think dif-
ficulties might be overcome.
73. Do you know what supply might be obtained of the bodies of persons who have
died on board the hulks? — We have received bodies from the hulks, but the num-
bers were so small, and those received were so much mutilated, that they were of
comparatively little use.
74. Have you been at all led to consider whether it would be expedient to obtain a
supply from the bodies of those persons who die in workhouses, that are unclaimed
by relatives or friends? — Upon this point I am extremely anxious to read to
the Committee the information I have taken some pains to obtain respecting
the Mary-le-bone infirmary and workhouse, and which I think may be here
useful. I conceived that the Mary-le-bone workhouse was that which was most
to my purpose, because it is unlike the Saint Giles's workhouse, in which there
are a great number of Irish. At the Mary-le-bone workhouse I have learned
the following particulars : — The infirmary of that workhouse contains 340 patients,
the inmates in the workhouse and infirmary consisting of the aged, of children, and
of those incapable of labour, are now 1,346; they were, in January 1828, 1,382;
and in January 1827, 1,370; in the summer in July 1827, 1,09.5 ; and in July 1826,
they were 967 ; so that they range between 960 and 1,400 ; they can accommodate
1,700 persons. The claimants in the parish are 6,383; of the out-poor there are
four sources of burials. In the first place, they bury those dying in the infirmary;
in the second, they bury those dying in the workhouse, who are attended by its
apothecary ; in the third, they bury those who die in the parish, attended by generaj
practitioners; and in the fourth, they bury insane persons from a house which they
have at Hoxton. The deaths in the workhouse are 110 annually; the deaths in the
infirmary are 238; the still-born are 64; the parish poor not in the house, 161;
and lunatics, 12 ; making a total of 58,5 persons buried in that workhouse in the
year : one-fifth of those buried are unclaimed, 84 only are buried by their friends ;
of those who claim and attend the funerals, very few would claim if they were to be
at the expense of the funeral ; they are acquaintance rather than relatives ; it is the
Irish who chiefly bury their dead, and they will rarely permit inspection; 100
English subjects are inspected to one Irishman. I inquired whether that circum-
stance arose from their not -having had their wake, and that perhaps after the
wake they would be disposed to give up their friend ; but the difficulty is the same
after as before, so that it arises from some other feeling. The parish bury the
bodies at Saint John's Wood Farm, and until very lately a woman only followed the
corpse in order to give a sort of decency to the funeral, receiving two-pence or three-
pence for her attendance ; now they send five or six to the grave in a hearse at a
time.
75. Will you explain the term inspection? — When a person dies of any curious
disease, a medical man of proper professional zeal is anxious to know the exact nature
of the disease of which his patient has died, and he applies to the friends to open
the body, and the permission is given by the English, but not by the Irish.
76. It appears that 585 were buried by the parish in the course of one year, and
that one-fifth are unclaimed ; at least a hundred unclaimed bodies might be obtained, if
it were deemed expedient, from this source? — Yes, from that workhouse alone; in
the parochial infirmary of St. Giles in the Fields and St. George Bloomsbury,
during the twelvemonth, between November 1826 and 1827. 505 bodies of paupers
were
SELECT COMMITTEE ON ANATOMY. 2.1
were buried at the parish expense, including all ages, about 380 of which number Su Astll^[00'"'
died in the workhouse ; and it is calculated that about one-fifth of the whole number 1 _ ' .
had no friends to notice them. 28 April
77. Supposing it to be deemed expedient that the bodies of those unclaimed by their 1 828.
relatives at the workhouses should be given up for dissection, you would admit that
under all circumstances the surgeons should engage to give to the bodies dissected
a decent burial, and be at the expense of such burial? — It would be very proper;
and it is my strong desire that the funeral rites should be performed over each
body so obtained ; and in France it is observed, for there is a sacrament always
performed on the dead before the body is removed.
78. Are there not some instances in which the whole body being retained, there
would be no remains to be buried ? — The greater part of the subject is in some
instances retained ; but in the dissection of a body, even to make a preparation,
there are parts which are not retained, and those parts are buried, but at present
not with funeral rites ; but it would be best that funeral rites should be performed
previously to any anatomical examination.
79. If the practice of giving up the unclaimed bodies from workhouses were ren-
dered legal, under what regulations would you propose to place the distribution of
the bodies ? — There I should revert to my idea of having a Director of Anatomy, so
that there should be the most perfect impartiality in the distribution of the bodies,
that every thing should be conducted decently, that the fees should be paid, anil
the funeral rites known to be performed ; and when such a director was appointed
I think there would be no difficulty : however, it would be very proper that, if
bodies were received from workhouses, the surgeons of workhouses should be per-
mitted previously to inspect them, or great difficulties would be made by them ; and
it is a duty to permit them to learn what was the cause of death in their patients.
80. Have you understood that great objections are at present made at parish work-
houses and infirmaries to an inspection, even by parish surgeons, of the bodies of
those who die under particular and remarkable diseases ? — I must say that the
overseers and churchwardens are, when dresbed in their brief authority, excessively
dictatorial and self-important.
81. In case of any alteration in the law, would you not deem it prudent in the first
instance to permit only, and not to compel parish officers to give up for dissection
the unclaimed bodies ? — It would be much better I should think to reconcile them
than to endeavour to compel them to it ; the English lead better than they drive.
82. Would there not be a danger that they might not lie reconciled to it, and that
that would render the means of supply precarious? — Yes, there would be difficulties
with the overseers and churchwardens, excepting they were men of understanding,
and then there would be no difficulty:
83. Would it not be more conducive to the interests of science, and consequently
of humanity, that students should have the dissection of the bodies of those persons
whom thev have attended during illness, than of those whom they have never seen
previously ?— Certainly.
84. Are you aware of the price of a body in France? — The price of a body in
France has been upon the average seven francs.
85. You have stated that there is great difficulty in procuring the bodies of Irishmen ;
are you aware of the price of the bodies of Irishmen in Ireland ?— Yes, an Irishman
in Ireland does not appear to be so valuable as in England ; in Ireland I have
been informed, that a surgeon of one of the hospitals there, obtained during the
winter a great number of bodies for dissection at a very very small price, less even
than that in France.
86. Can you account in any way for that difference between the feeling of the Irish
in England and in Ireland, which renders it so difficult to procure a body here, and so
easy to procure it there? — The fact is, in Ireland, as I have been informed, the
burials are conducted on the outside of the city, that the grounds are in detached
situations, and that there is a ready access to exhumation ; whereas in England that
is not the case.
87. You do not conceive that it proceeds from the consent of friends ? — Not at all.
88. Do you not know that there are a good many brought over from Ireland to
this country?— I have heard so.
89. Were you rightly understood to have said, that there were certain schools in
London where pupils were educated by casts, without dissection ?— I have heard that
there were schools in which the supply of bodies was extremely small indeed.
90. Have you been able to institute any comparison between a school of pupils,
568. C 3 where
iSiS
22 MINUTES OF EVIDENCE TAKEN BEFORE
Sir Astlcy Cooper, where dissection has been more frequent, and where it has been more rare ? — I think
li.irt. that in what I have already said, I have shown the ignorance of those persons who
<- J have had little opportunity of dissection ; that they were unaware even of the exist-
28 April ence of some parts of the body, and that they were obliged to be rejected at the Col-
lege of Surgeons, from their ignorance of Anatomy : which is not to be imputed to
their want of zeal, but entirely to the want of proper instructions, and of opportunity
to learn their profession.
91 . Had those pupils who were so rejected, received their education in schools where
casts had been used ? — I should be sorry to be understood to say, that there is any
school in London in which the students have not access to a dead body ; but that
other means are used to gain instruction I am quite certain ; but a lecturer who has
two or three bodies in the course of a winter to instruct forty or fifty students, is a
man who ought not to be permitted to teach ; because it is absolutely impossible
a student can obtain knowledge without manipulation, that is, without his having
recourse to the dissection of the body ; a lecturer who has only one or two subjects
to practise on, must frequently resort to these, and they are kept in pickle ; and
then the student does not dissect at all.
92. You have mentioned that the facilities of obtaining bodies for dissection, and
consequently for instruction, on the Continent, are great ; have you observed that
pupils who are educated in foreign countries, where they have had a facility of dis-
section, have acquired greater knowledge than those educated in England, where
dissection is more rare ? — I wish to say, that I do not think the price of bodies should
he below two guineas ; if bodies are exceedingly cheap, as they are in France, the
result of their being so is, that they are less valuable to the student, and they do not
take precisely the same pains that they would if a body cost them a little more;
but the high price in England operates in a great degree as a bar to dissection.
93. Are you to be understood to say, that the price had been for a body fourteen
guineas, and that it is now eight guineas ? — Yes ; when I first began the profession,
it was two guineas ; it was then raised to four and six ; then to fourteen guineas,
and from fourteen guineas it seems now to be fixed at eight.
94. Does not that fall of price rather indicate a decrease in the difficulty of obtaining
bodies than an increase? — A supply derived from those sources is extremely un-
certain, it may be eight guineas to day and fourteen next week, and at the present
moment, notwithstanding there is so high a price, a surgeon who is at present in
this room has not been able to obtain a body for a considerable time.
95. How long has the present price of eight guineas obtained now on an average ? —
I mentioned that fourteen guineas had been given, but it was an occurrence of
but a very short duration, and therefore that ought not perhaps to be admitted into
the calculation ; but the price of bodies has risen from two guineas to eight guineas
in the space of about twenty years, and that price forbids dissection to a great part
of the students.
96. You stated that that high price arose from the conduct of a particular person
who exercised a great influence over the supply? — Yes, from a combination and
monopoly.
97. Therefore the argument that there is a greater facility by the lower price does
not obtain upon this occasion ? — No ; there is no facility ; the price of bodies is now
carried so far, that the pupils are prevented from receiving a proper education;
and I assure the Committee it has been observed in the College of Surgeons, that
our young men within the two last years have declined in respect to their
knowledge.
98. Your suggestion of a public officer to distribute bodies among the schools in
London, is of course applicable only to the circle of London, and will not operate
upon the facility beyond those narrow limits ? — Yes, if there be facility in London,
no difficulty will exist any where ; because London has supplied Edinburgh, and it
has supplied Oxford and other places in the country ; if there be a free supply in
London, there will be no difficulty in the country.
99. According to your plan of appointing a public officer to distribute subjects,
would he have to distribute them throughout the kingdom, or in London only? — He
would be confined to London.
100. Would you consider it desirable for the supply of the schools of Anatomy
in Scotland, that a director should be appointed at one of the ports there ? — It would
be \ try desirable.
101. Could the partkl supply of bodies from the Continent take place in the time
oi' war?— No; not from the country with which wc are at war.
102. The
SELECT COMMITTEE ON ANATOMY. 23
102. The same system of regulation you have proposed for London, might be sir Astky Cooper
ndopted in Liverpool and other great towns ?— Yes, there would always be a ready
supply in the country, if there was a great freedom of supply in London.
Benjamin Collins Brodie, Esq. ; called in and Examined.
103. YOU are surgeon to St. George's Hospital, and teacher of surgery in the
school of Anatomy in Great Windmill-street? — I am.
104. It is almost needless to ask you what degree of importance you attach to
dissection, both as regards the practice of surgery and of medicine? — There can be
no knowledge of surgery without it, and very little knowledge of medicine.
105. Can Anatomy be sufficiently learnt in any way but by dissection of the actual
body ? — Certainly not.
106. Can a practitioner be expected to possess the necessary skill and courage to
perform a difficult operation, if he has not already performed the same operation on
a dead body? — It is of great importance that he should perform such operations on
the dead body as can be performed on it.
107. Is it not desirable therefore that there should be a supply of subjects, not only
for teaching a student the structure and functions of the human body, but also for
enabling him to practise all the principal operations which he may be required to
perform on a living body? — Undoubtedly.
108. Is it possible to teach Anatomy well by casts, or any similar sort of
preparation? — Quite impossible.
109. Are you aware that there are any schools in London in which an attempt is
made to teach Anatomy by casts, or any sort of preparation, and without the aid of the
actual subject? — I believe there are one or two persons who introduce drawings,
and perhaps casts and other models, to a certain extent, but I am not aware that
any person undertakes to teach Anatomy absolutely without a dead body ; there is
a great difference in the number of bodies dissected, and some persons attempt to
teach Anatomy with very little dissection ; they teach it of course very imperfectly.
110. Do you not think that the greatest injury is inflicted on society, both on the
rich and on the poor, by the ignorance of Anatomy ? — I should think a great injury
indeed, beyond what society in general imagine.
111. What inconvenience, if any, have you experienced in the course of your teach-
ing, from the difficulty of obtaining a supply of dead bodies ? — I have not had much
personal experience of the difficulty which exists, as several years have elapsed
since I taught Anatomy ; I have for the last sixteen years only lectured on surgery,
for which I do not generally require more than one or two bodies in the season ;
but I hear from teachers of Anatomy and from students, that the difficulty is very
great; I have even for my surgical lectures sometimes been obliged to wait a
good while before I could procure a subject.
1 1 2. Requiring only one or two bodies, you have still experienced some inconve-
nience from being obliged to wait? — I have.
113. In what way do you understand the present state of the law to operate upon
the practice of dissection? — I suppose the practical operation of it is limited to the
difficulties in procuring bodies from burying grounds ; but I am informed that the
operation of it might extend much further, if the law was strictly enforced ; and
that it is to be regarded as a misdemeanor to possess a dead body, without being able
to account for your having obtained it by legal means.
J 14. Have you seen the report of a late trial at Lancaster? — I have.
115. Have you had several interviews with the Secretaries of State, both of the
present and of the late government, who have done every thing in their power to
alleviate, as far as thev could consistently with their duty of seeing the laws obeyed,
the evils which the teachers of Anatomy now experience ? — I had several interviews
last year with Mr. Peel upon the subject, and one with Mr. Spring Rice; both
these gentlemen appeared to be exceedingly anxious to do all which was in their power
to do; Mr. Peel gave the subject much consideration, and did a great deal by re-
moving impediments to the importation from abroad of dead bodies.
116. What difficulties were experienced in importing dead bodies? — Very little
actual difficulty in the importation on this side of the water, after Mr. Peel's interfer-
ence ; but there were difficulties on the other side of the water, that is in France, so
that very few could be procured from this quarter ; I understand also that there were
difficulties in procuring them even from Ireland ; but the worst part of the business,
if my information has been correct, is, that bodies come over in a very putrid state,
568. C 4 and
28 April
•24 MINUTES OF EVIDENCE TAKEN BEFORE
C. Brodie an(^ very levv °f l'icm fit ,or usu '> n0 antiseptic process was used, or probably more
Esq. might have been done.
— —*>, ' 1 1". You think by an antiseptic process, the bodies could be brought more fit for
28 April dissection ? — Yes.
,8a8- 1 18. Did not considerable difficulties arise from the apprehensions of the masters
that their ships, if it became known what they were carrying, would be deserted by
passengers? — I believe there was some difficulty of that kind.
1 1 y. Did not the police interpose some difficulties ? — On one occasion, the Thames
police did interpose some difficulty ; but it was removed by a stronger hand.
120. In what way do you think the public mind is affected by giving up the bodies
of murderers for dissection ? — I think on the whole the effect is injurious ; at the
same time it appears to me, that some of my friends regard it as being more injurious
than it really is ; on the whole it would be better, as far as Anatomy is concerned,
that the practice were abolished.
121. The same objection would apply to the giving up the bodies of suicides? —
Yes, certainly.
122. Perhaps to a greater degree? — Probably so.
1 23. Can you suggest any method of obtaining subjects for dissection, by adopting
which, the practice of disinterment might be superseded ? — It appears to me, as I
suppose it does to most other persons, that the objections which may be made to
dissection, arise from its injuring the feelings of relations and friends; the being dis-
sected, cannot matter to the poor dead carcass ; the fittest persons in society
for dissection, are those who have no friends to care about them ; the dead body of
course does not feel either injury or disgrace, and where there are no friends to feel
it, the mischief to society can be none at all.
1 24. Do you consider, that the body of a person who has died a violent death in
perfect health, is a more favourable or a less favourable subject for dissection, than
the body of a person who has died by disease ? — I should think the state of the body
depends very much upon the mode of death ; a man who destroys himself by cutting
his carotid arteries, makes a very good subject for dissection.
1 25. Can a body be preserved as long, which has died suddenly, as that one which
has been attenuated by disease? — Yes, I conceive so in general; it depends on the
mode of death, and those who die through some diseases, putrify much sooner.
126. There is no general rule? — No.
127. You heard that part of the evidence of Sir Astley Cooper, which related to
the giving up the bodies of those who die in workhouses, and are unclaimed ; do you
concur with him in opinion ? — Yes ; 1 do believe that is one of the proper sources
from which the anatomical schools should be supplied ; but in what manner the pro-
curing the supply from them can be accomplished, is another question.
128. As to the particular enactments, you do not give any opinion ? — It appears to
me, that if any positive enactment were to be made by the legislature declaring that the
bodies of a certain class of individuals were to be selected for dissection, and others
not, it would create a great alarm, and a great feeling of disgust among all classes
of society ; but it appears to me also, that the thing might be accomplished in
another way. The custom cannot well be introduced at once ; it would be too great
a change in the habits of society altogether ; but I conceive that by some negative
enactment, if I may use the expression, the custom might be gradually introduced,
and that in a few years there would be no feeling against it. In my remembrance,
it was not a very common thing for the bodies of those who died out of hospitals to
be examined as we term it, that is, to be partially dissected ; but those who are
only ten or fifteen years older than I am, tell me that in their time it was much
less common. In short it was much more difficult formerly than it is at present to
persuade people, especially those of the poorer classes, to submit to the examination
of the bodies of their friends ; now the difficulty is so little, that there is hardly a
practitioner in London, in practice amongst the lowest description of persons, who
does not examine the bodies of a great many of those who die under his care.
Altogether, I believe that the prejudice against dissection is much less than it was
twenty-five years ago.
129. Do you find that in the upper classes too? — Yes, I think it is quite as little
among the higher as among the lower.
130. Will you state what you meant, in your last answer but one, by a negative enact-
ment .- — The Committee already know that a great number of persons die unclaimed
in workhouses and hospitals, without a relation, or friend, or even acquaintance, to care
about them ; some of those at the hospitals arc now given up for dissection, that
would
SELECT COMMITTEE ON ANATOMY. 25
would not have been given up twenty years ago. The hospitals however would not
supply a sufficient number, while the poor houses would supply the number over and
over again. There are some of the overseers who have a strong feeling against dissec-
tion, and I suppose would not very readily give up a body ; but there are others who
see the thing in what I conceive to be its true light, and would be glad to do so, if they
■were legally justified in it. I have reason to believe that there is one parish workhouse
from whence a great many bodies have been sent to an anatomical school, with the
consent of the master of the workhouse and the churchwardens ; I am informed also,
that the churchwarden or overseer of another parish says, that if he could give them
up he would ; but he is afraid he might get into a scrape if he did so. The first thing
to be done then is, to declare that dissection, for the purpose of obtaining knowledge
that may be useful in medicine and surgery, is legal and proper. It might then be
enacted, that it is not lawful knowingly to dissect the bodies of any persons without
the consent of their relations or friends, or executors, or legal representatives ; and
this clause might be so worded as to include the overseers and churchwardens of
parishes under the latter denomination, in cases of persons dying without friends in
poor-houses ; and it might be further enacted, that even with their consent, no body
shall be dissected, if the individual had by his last will and testament expressed his
wish to the contrary. Now if some such declaration and enactments as these were
made by the legislature, I have no doubt that a supply of subjects, to a certain extent,
-would be immediately obtained by the purchase of them from the friends of the
deceased, and that the custom of obtaining them from other sources would become
gradually established.
131. You would be much more favourable to a permissive than a compulsory
enactment ? — Yes.
132. Are you aware of the trial of the King against Young, in which a surgeon,
a parish officer and another person, were indicted for a conspiracy, and found guilty,
for preventing the burial of a person who had died in a workhouse? — I am not; if
it was thought necessary, it might be declared that those bodies were all to have
christian burial after dissection ; in the majority of cases the whole body would be
buried, and in other cases a great part of it.
133. Do you think that when the result of the late trial at Lancaster comes to be
known (at which two students were found guilty of a misdemeanor for taking into
their possession, with intent to dissect, a dead body, at the time knowing the same
to have been disinterred,) it will tend materially to deter teachers and students from
receiving subjects obtained in the usual manner, and thereby to stop the practice of
dissection? — I do not know that it has yet done so, but 1 think it must operate
hereafter to a certain extent in this way; as it is, the difficulties of getting bodies
are so great, and there is so much annoyance and plague in managing that part of
the concern, that a great many of the anatomical teachers are disgusted with their
occupation.
134. Do you feel yourselves in a more distressing position, since you have learnt
from this trial what the law is, than you were before ? — I have not much actual
inconvenience myself, for I am not now a teacher of Anatomy ; but a friend of mine,
who is nearly retired from the teaching of Anatomy, told me he was led to retire
because he Mas worried to death by the difficulty of getting dead bodies.
135. Are you aware that in Scotland there are several instances to that effect?
— I think that very likely, as the difficulties are greater there than here.
136. Are you aware that some of the teachers of the private schools are retiring,
in consequence of the increase of the difficulties ? — It is extremely probable.
137. Do you concur with Sir Astley Cooper in his statement, that there are 700
medical students in London?— I should not think there are above 500 actual
dissecting students.
138. What should you think a fair supply of subjects for dissection, per pupil, in
the course of the year? — I should think that the number necessary is generally over-
rated ; I doubt whether there have been hitherto more than 500 bodies actually dis-
sected in London in the course of a year; and indeed, from such knowledge as I have
on the subject, I should think that exceeds the number.
T 39. The question relates to the number that would be necessary in order efficiently
to teach, both the structure of the human body, and the mode of performing
operations on the body? — I doubt whether more than 600 bodies are necessary, or
perhaps 700.
140. Supposing the enactments were made which you recommend, do you con-
ceive that the offensive practice of exhumation might be altogether got rid of? — I think
568. D it
•28 April
26 MINUTES OF EVIDENCE TAKEN BEFORE
it might be by degrees ; but if such a declaration were to be made by the Legislature,
and another law made, making it a greater crime than it now is to exhume, the
schools would suffer great inconvenience.
141. Are vou of opinion that the principal surgeons would do all they could to the
discontinuance of the practice of exhumation, if they could get bodies by any other
mode of supply ? — I should think so.
1 42. Are you aware of the character of the men who supply the bodies by exhuma-
tion ? — Yes, they are as bad as any in society ; and when 1 consider their characters,
I think it is a dangerous thing to society that they should be able to get ten guineas
for a body.
143. You are of opinion, therefore, that by tolerating exhumation, you are in fact
tolerating the existence of a set of the most depraved men in society ? — Certainly;
theirs must be a great school of vice.
144. There being usually some reluctance on the part of patients and of their
friends to their being sent to public hospitals, have you any means of judging whether
much of that reluctance proceeds from an apprehension of their being subject to dis-
section in case of death? — I do not know much of the reluctance ; I see gentlemen's
servants, who live in luxury, think themselves rather ill treated if sent to an hospital ;
but the poor are very glad indeed to get there, and at our hospital, we frequently
send away three times the number we have beds to receive ; the poor people, at our
end of the town, are going about striving very anxiously to get letters to hospitals ;
they are not received into the hospitals at the west end of the town without letters
from governors, except in case of accident.
14.5. You believe there is not much indisposition on the part of the friends to
their going to the hospital ?■ — -None at all ; at least it depends on their grade in society,
and not on the fear of dissection.
146. Is there much disinclination on the part of the poor to gain admission to
those hospitals which have dissecting establishments attached to them ? — Not that I
am aware of ; we have no dissecting establishment attached to our hospital.
1 47. Do you think there is an apprehension on the part of the patients in hospitals,
that in case of dying, they will be subjected to examination? — What is to be said
on that part of it, will serve to illustrate the subject generally; I have understood
that in most of the parish infirmaries, for example, there is a great difficulty in exa-
mining bodies ; it is not to be done without the consent of the relations and church-
wardens or overseers, and the consent is often refused. I believe it is the case also
in some hospitals, at any rate it used to be so, that the bodies cannot be examined
without the form of permission of the friends ; in our hospital it has always been
considered as a rule that every body who died was to be examined, and we have had
no difficulty about it ; perhaps once in two or three years there comes a poor woman
to pray that her child or her sister may not be examined, because it was her wish
that she should not ; but it is very rarely that there is any such application, either
before or after death ; they consider the examination as a matter of course, and
think nothing about it.
i/|8. It is your opinion that the dislike to the practice of the examination is on the
decrease ? — I believe so.
149. Should you extend the same remark to the practice of dissection ? — Examina-
tion is in fact dissection to a certain extent ; the more people's minds are familiarized
to dissection, the less they think of it. Those who live in the neighbourhood of an
anatomical school think nothing about it ; I remember some years ago, it so hap-
pened that several bodies, I believe as many as ten, were brought into the dissecting
room in Windmill-street in the middle of the day ; and many persons in the street
must have known it, and it did not excite the smallest attention among them, they
■were accustomed to it.
150. Is there any thing further you have to state with respect to the difficulties of
obtaining dead bodies, or the remedies to be adopted ? — Mr. Peel had a plan
for giving op the bodies of those dying in the hulks, which would make a certain
number, about fifty or sixty in the year, if they were all sent up, and I understand
there is not one of them that ever has a friend or relation to come and visit them
before their death, or to see about them after it ; so it used to be in the hulks at
Portsmouth, while an acquaintance of mine was employed there officially.
151. Are they given up now ? — I believe there is a difficulty in the way of their
being given up, on account of the Act of Parliament requiring they should be buried,
and the funeral service read over them.
152. Might not that be complied with after dissection? — It might
153. What
SELECT COMMITTEE ON ANATOMY. 27
1 53. What number of subjects do you think each pupil should have dissected before B. C. Brodie,
he is permitted to practice ? — The fact is, that the great mass of pupils cannot have Es(l-
what I would call a complete education.
154. Supposing them to have a complete education, what number of subjects do ^^e"1
you think they ought to have ? — A complete education ought to occupy four or five
years ; but the majority of the students are in London not more than a year and
a half.
155. Do you conceive that a person ought to be allowed to practice who has not
dissected five bodies?— Yes ; it cannot be helped. The majority of students cannot
have a very complete education, at any rate not under the present system. The
law requires those who are to practice as apothecaries, and those are twenty-nine
out of thirty, to serve an apprenticeship of five years ; so that five of the best years
of a young man's life arc disposed of, before he can enter on his studies in London.
Then, setting aside the expense of lectures, dissections and hospital attendance, the
expense of living in London for four or five years is very great, and such as not many
Can afford. There are very few medical practitioners who have any prospect of
obtaining any thing but a very moderate income by their best exertions, and there-
fore there are but few among those whose means are ample, who have any induce-
ment to enter the profession. A young man who looks forward to getting 300 /. a
year in a village in Wales, will not spend a large sum of money on his education.
If a more extensive system of dissection could be introduced, this might be rectified,
as in that case very go<5d medical schools might be established in Birmingham,
Liverpool and other large provincial towns, where the young medical men in the
neighbouring districts would be educated at a much less expense than in London.
156. Should you consider it desirable that he should dissect i\ve bodies rather than
one? — Yes, that he should have the opportunity of dissecting them, if he has time
to do so.
157. The question put to you did not so much relate to the actual number now
dissected with the limited means the students have of obtaining them, as to the
number which you think it would be desirable they should dissect, were subjects to
be had at low prices and abundantly ? — If each student dissects on an average
a body or a body and a half in a year, that is, t%vo or four students taking a body
together, which is the usual course of things, it will be found that the students who
are diligent will obtain a great deal of dissection ; and in that case each student,
who is to have what I would call a very complete education, will require even more
than five bodies before his education is over.
158. Do you include in that answer the bodies which it is considered as desirable
that the students should be supplied with, in order that they may perform upon them
surgical operations ? — Yes, for that purpose two bodies would, on many occasions,
serve several students.
159. Could each student in that way perform the same operation ?• — Not quite;
because there are some operations which could be done only once on each body ;
but there are others which could be performed several times on the same body.
I think if there were four hundred and fifty or five hundred students, making
allowance for those among them who are idle and who will not dissect much, and
also for those who will dissect a great deal, five hundred bodies would be sufficient
for their dissection in one year, and two hundred more for their operations : of course
it is impossible to give a positive opinion upon such a subject till the case is tried,
it is matter of experience.
] 60. Do you know the number which is generally performed upon by a pupil who
enters for dissection at Paris ? — No ; but if my information be correct they do not
dissect much, and the French students on the whole are not so good anatomists as
the English; but I apprehend that is as much attributable to national character,
as to the cause mentioned by Sir Astley Cooper, namely, the superfluity of
subjects,
161 . The proficiency of students will depend in some measure on the excellency of
the demonstrator or teacher ? — Yes ; nevertheless I am informed, that on the whole
there are fewer good anatomists among the French than among the English students.
if) 2. Do you extend that also to the teachers? — No, certainly not ; I believe them
to be good.
163. Do you not think that they are as a class superior to ours, especially in
morbid Anatomy ? — Perhaps their physicians cultivate morbid Anatomy more than
ours do ; I do not believe that their surgeons do.
164. Supposing an eminent surgeon has said it required three or four bodies for a
568. D 2 studcn:
28
MINUTES OF EVIDENCE TAKEN BEFORE
» Quarterly Journal
of Foreign Medi-
cinc and Surgery.
Vol.1. Art. III.
student in a year, does it occur to you how that is to be reconciled with your
opinion? — I think that is an over calculation; I do not know what he is to do
with them ; there is no time to use them ; the bodies must be wasted.
165. Do you think that the students of surgery in London, after completing their
education, would be able to go through the following examination which takeiT place
at Vienna*. " One of the public examinations for the degree of master in surgery,
consists in the performance of certain operations on the dead body ; the operations
are determined by lot ; the candidate describes the surgical Anatomy of the parts ;
lays down the indications for the operations; performs them upon the dead body
which is before him, and applies the proper bandages." Do you think that the
students, as they now quit the schools, after having gone through the two courses
of dissection, would be able to acquit themselves of a trial so severe as that? — No;
not those of ordinary education. I think that two courses of dissection is a very
imperfect education indeed ; and instead of two courses of dissection which occupy
one year, four or five years are necessary to complete the education of a surgeon.
166. Do you think the students of Dublin have an advantage over the students in
London, from the facility with which the bodies are procured? — I believe the
majority of them are better anatomists than the English students.
1(17. You have heard that there is an abundant supply of dead bodies to be
obtained in Dublin? — Yes.
1 68. Are you aware that the candidates for the diploma of the College of Surgeons
appear to be well or ill instructed, according as they came from schools where faci-
lities are given for dissection? — I cannot speak from experience, not being an
examiner ; but I have heard so.
169. Have you known any injury done to the health of English students, towards
the close of the season of tuition, from their continual exposure to bodies in a state of
putridity ? — I think the health of many students suffer from their being too long in
the dissecting-room ; but they generally have got their dangerous diseases from
opening recent subjects, not from putrid ones.
John Abernethy, Esq. called in ; and Examined.
170. ARE you surgeon to St. Bartholomew's Hospital, and lecturer on anatomy
and surgery there? — I was surgeon ; I am not now.
171. Will you state your opinion as to the importance of dissection for students
in anatomy, surgery, and medicine? — It is of the highest importance to the public;
nothing in life, 1 believe, that can be considered as more important; it is the founda-
tion of all medical knowledge. Anatomical knowledge is not merely requisite in
order that we may perform operations successfully, but it is the foundation of phy-
siology ; and the knowledge of the structure and functions of the organs and parts
of the body is the sole source of our knowledge of disease.
1 72. You would state it therefore generally to be your opinion, that the practice of
dissection must be protected and encouraged under any circumstances ? — Unquestion-
ably ; it would be little less than the commission of murder not to do it; it would be
a cause of the greatest aggravation of human sufferings. The subject which is now
urged on the consideration of Parliament by the necessities of the medical profes-
sion, has been one that has excited the utmost attention and endeavours of all the
teachers of Anatomy in this town for a great number of years. It is between fifteen
and twenty years ago that we endeavoured to get the subject submitted to the consi-
deration of His Majesty's government, of the magistrates, and of the directors of
eleemosynary establishments, through the intervention of the Colleges of Physicians
and Surgeons ; and here is a paper to which they all subscribed their names at that
time.
[ The Witness delivered in the same, which was read, as follows :]
The undersigned, who are or have been teachers of Anatomy, respectfully represent
to the Royal College of Physicians and Surgeons, that in their opinion the fol-
lowing subjects should be submitted for consideration to the government of the
country, its magistrates, and the directors or eleemosynary institutions:
1st. Medical or chirurgical knowledge has never been acquired and augmented, but
in proportion as Anatomy has been practically taught and studied.
2d. The importance of medical and chirurgical knowledge, although universally ad-
mitted, is never clearly understood nor strongly felt by individuals, until such know-
ledge be urgently required. A few instances will sufficiently illustrate this truth.
The industrious parent of a numerous and happy family may, even in the vigour of
r" in consequence of neglecting the faulty actions of some important organ, of his
body.
lift
SELECT COMMITTEE ON ANATOMY.
29
boil)-, suffer disease to become established, and may thence prematurely perish ; leav-
ing the individuals of his family a burthen to society, and an affliction to each other;
whereas an intelligent physician could have warned him of the dangers of such neglecr,
and have shown him how these errors, the precursors of incurable disease, might have
been corrected, and their fatal consequence prevented ; yet no physician could do this
without a knowledge of the structures and offices of the several organs which compose
the human frame, for the knowledge of the healthy actions of organs can alone enable
him to distinguish and correct those which are unhealthy, and which, if continued,
must prove fatal. A man having that common infirmity, a rupture, might revile those
who dissect the dead body; but when the protruded bowel shall be strangulated, his
rupture, if left to itself, must bring him to a certain and most painful death ; yet he
might be relieved from agony and destruction by a simple and secure operation," when
performed by a person conversant with Anatomy, though dangerous in the extreme
when attempted by hands not sufficiently practised in dissection.
3d. From conviction of the importance of anatomical knowledge to health, main-
tenance of life, and the happiness of the community, the legislature or police of almost
every other civilized country has provided means for teaching Anatomy, whilst in this
the teachers of so important a science are obliged to depend upon persons of doubtful
character for the necessary supply.
The College of Physicians and Surgeons properly require that candidates for admis-
sion as members should have frequently dissected, and should be perfectly acquainted
with the situation, structure, connections and functions of every part of the human bodv,
and must therefore, as they regard the " common weal" for which they were instituted,
deeply regret that the opportunities of obtaining such requisite information are very
deficient.
4th. There are in this and in every country many persons who die without relatives or
friends surviving them, and if the public could be reconciled to their remains being
made the subjects of anatomical investigation, the disinterment of those of others for
this purpose would never be necessary.
5th. Whilst, however, this necessity exists, it is surely wise and benevolent to sup-
press the publication of the discovery of an act which may painfully agitate the minds
of individuals, but which, in the present state of society, is indispensably necessary to
the general good.
The disinterment of a body cannot, it is presumed, be considered legally as more
than a trespass; and in a trial for this offence, in which its necessity was argued before
Lord Kenyon in the Court of King's Bench, his Lordship sentenced the offender merely
to a small fine without any imprisonment ; yet some magistrates, influenced by a natural
feeiing, and without reflecting on the necessity of the deed, have punished persons con-
victed of this offence with the utmost rigour of the law.
(signed) William Blizard, Chairman of the Anatomical Society.
John Abernethy, T. J. Armiger, Matthew Bail/ie, \
Charles Bell, B. C. Brodie, Henry Clitie,
Edzcard Coleman, Astley Cooper, H. J. Frampton, I Members of the
Joseph Henry Green, John Haviland, R. C. Headington, ) Society.
Everard Home, Christopher Fegge, John Share,
Edward Stanley, H. L. Thomas, James IVi/son, )
173. What was the date of that paper?— I cannot state; I know it was hefore
I had any concern in the administration of the College of Surgeons ; and it must
therefore have been between fifteen and twenty years ago. I think that what is done
in Dublin ought to be attended to by persons in this country ; in Dublin, it is directed
that the paupers buried at the public charge, should be interred at a distance from the
city. The magistrates of that country have the good sense to perceive that it is not
right to punish, with the utmost severity of the law, the trespass of disinterring some
of those bodies, when the act is so indispensably requisite to the nearest and dearest
interests of every living being. The law remains ; they may punish the trespass with
great severity, if they find it has been conducted indecorously, or without the utmost
possible attention to conceal it from the public. The knowledge of this fact excites no
inquietude in the mind of the poorer classes of society ; they think not of it. Bodies
are distributed by the police in Paris and in other places at noon-day ; they are sent
in covered carts, on which is written pour le service Hotel de Dieu, or any other
hospital, and they scarcely attract the attention of those who pass them ; I state this
to show how soon the public mind accommodates itself to circumstances. If the
directors of eleemosynary establishments would but agree to consign the bodies of
friendless paupers as subjects of dissection, I have no doubt that they would be fully
sufficient for the exigencies of medical science. As soon as I knew that an inquiry
was likely to be made by a Committee of the House of Commons, I immediately
instituted an inquiry into the average number of paupers buried by a large parish,
in different parts of the town ; because I knew that the ratio of unclaimed bodies
568. D 3 must
80
MINUTES OF EVIDENCE TAKEN BEFORE
Address delivered
on the opening of
the Dissecting
School at St. Bar-
tholomew's
Hospital.
must vary according to the situation of the establishment ; at present I have received
information only from one parish, which buries 400 paupers annually, at the cost
of 400/. to the public. OF these, one-fifth or So, arc said to be absolutely without
friends, or are unclaimed. I have therefore the strongest belief, that if the directors
of these establishments would but concede, that absolutely friendless paupers should
be made subjects of anatomical instruction, this supply would be adequate to the
exigencies of the profession.
174. Do you deem the continuance of the practice of dissection so important,
that if no supply of bodies could be obtained in any other manner, you would think
it wise to go on tolerating the practice of exhumation ? — Unquestionably ; for I see
that the welfare of society is vitally concerned in the attainment of anatomical
knowledge.
175. Would you prefer any other means of obtaining a supply? — No doubt;
there would be no exhumation, if this was conceded.
176. The Committee collect from a publication of your own, in which there is
the following passage, that at one period you had a conference with the government
on the subject :
" I know that the necessity of the case became a subject of deep interest and con-
sideration to men of the first intellect, knowledge and rank, in the kingdom. It was
not long after the commencement of the last war, that the detection and trumpeting
forth Or an offence of this nature induced a Member of Parliament to move for a bill to
make it felonious. I, with others of our profession, stated to those in power, that there
were at the time more than 200 young men who came up annually to London to obtain
a stock of anatomical knowledge, which was to last them throughout their lives, and
that at the conclusion of the "season, these students were employed in the army and
navy, where their services were there greatly wanted. I begged those with whom we
had' the honour of conversing, to reflect on the consequences of sending forth these
young men in ignorance, to torment and increase the hazard and sufferings of their
valiant countrymen. Every conversation ended in this decision, that the study of
Anatomy was indispensable, and must not be impeded."
You completely adhere to that your former opinion ? — It was the opinion of all those
gentlemen with whom I bad at the time the honour of conversing.
1 77. You would consider it highly desirable, however, that if possible the supply
of subjects should be obtained without having recourse to the practice of exhuma-
tion ? — No doubt.
178. Have you thought much upon the detail of the methods that might be
adopted for obtaining a supply from parish workhouses? — The teachers of Anatomy,
though so interested "in the subject, did not venture to apply to the legislative depart-
ment of the country, because they did not know how any law could be framed that
would not be liable to a great number of objections. But I have a strong hope, that if
those gentlemen that the public look up to with respect and good opinion, those that
have authority, would but declare it as their sentiment, that unclaimed bodies should
be given up as subjects for dissection ; that then the directors of poor houses,
hospitals and prisons, might make a general regulation to that effect.
1 79. Is the supply obtained by exhumation sufficient or not for the wants of the
pupils? — By no means sufficient.
1 80. To what particular causes do you attribute the present difficulty of obtaining
a supply ? — To the vigilance of the public in watching all the depositories of the dead.
181. What is the "number of subjects that a student in surgery, for his complete
education, ought to dissect ? — I think with Mr. Brodie upon this subject ; that if two
students were" to dissect a body yearly, observing at the same time the dissections
made by others, and that they were two years in completing their education, and
had likewise a third body allowed for the performance of operations, they would
become very competent surgeons ; I will not say perfect surgeons, because the
labour of an education to qualify a man to be a perfectly good surgeon, is beyond all
belief; half his life must be consumed ere he can be considered as a proficient.
182. Would not the number of pupils increase with the facility of acquiring
instruction ?— Undoubtedly, the number in this country ; because now many go to
other countries to learn Anatomy.
183. You cannot ascertain the number which would be requisite from the present
number of pupils in London? — I cannot answer precisely.
I04. How many bodies is each pupil in St. Bartholomew's hospital required to
operate upon in order to learn the best known operations of surgery ? — Very few,
indeed ; for that would be spoiling the body, which it is better they should dissect.
lSj. And yet, would you not consider it desirable, for a perfect course of
instruction,
SELECT COMMITTEE ON ANATOMY. 3*
instruction, that each student should have performed each known operation on the
dead body, before he presumes to perform it on the living? — Doubtless.
186. Considering that, and your late answer as to the number you consider it
desirable for a student to dissect in the course of a year, do you continue to think
that, and if operations are to be performed by the students on a dead body, one body
between two pupils would be sufficient in the course of a year ? — Yes, if their edu-
cation was to continue for two years, and an additional body allowed for the per-
formance of operations.
187. That would in the whole be three bodies between two pupils? — Yes, the
more they dissect the better ; but I speak of an ordinary education.
188. You are understood to say that very few pupils who quit the London
schools, have learned the actual operations by performing them on a dead subject,
before they are called upon to perform them upon the living ? — I believe very few
indeed ; but we consider that a person who is thoroughly conversant with Anatomy,
and has seen operations performed, will be very capable of performing them with
dexterity and security to the patient, though it is his first operation.
189. Is he not likely at the moment of operation to lose his presence of mind, if
he has never before used the knife in that particular operation? — I think that those
who have not presence of mind, will want it when they perform an operation on the
living body, however conversant they may be with the operation on the dead ; and,
those who have presence of mind, who are good anatomists, and have seen the
operations performed, will be able to perform it in a very perfect manner.
1 90. Do not you think that a person is more likely to lose his presence of mind
who has never performed the operation on a dead subject ? — I decidedly think ope-
rations ought to be performed on the dead subject.
191. Do you not think that the extended diffusion of anatomical knowledge from
the facility of procuring bodies, would be more beneficial to the poor than to the rich,
since the rich can afford to pay for qualified persons who have been enabled to in-
struct themselves in foreign countries or in this, at the expense which may be
required ? — Certainly.
192. What is your opinion of the character of those persons who are employed
as exhumators ? — That they are a very bad set of men.
193. Do they even act with good faith to the gentlemen who employ them ? — It
cannot be expected that they should.
194. Is it not the case that they sometimes give information against the very
persons whom they undertake to supply? — I cannot accuse them of any breach of
faith with myself.
195. Is it necessary for the purposes of Anatomy, that some subjects should
be had that die in a state of health? — I do not think it is; the structures are the
same, and if we know them, we can readily imagine the difference of their appearance
in a healthy person.
196. Do not you think that the facility to procure dead bodies would be in-
creased, if the stigma attaching to the dissection of murderers were removed? — I do
not think such stigma affects the public mind ; yet we gain so little by obtaining the
bodies of murderers, that we should have no objection to its being removed.
197. At the time of adding the dissecting establishment to St. Bartholomew's
Hospital, did you find that the number of persons claiming admission fell off ? — Not
at all.
198. You do not believe it would occasion any alteration? — I am sure it
would not ; there is an hospital in this town where the poor know that most of
the bodies are dissected, and yet applications for admission there are as numerous
as in other hospitals; the poor go into hospitals because they are ill and in a state
of penury ; and do not think that they are to die there; or if they do, they care not
"what is to become of their remains.
1 99. Do you concur in the opinion of Sir Astley Cooper, that the supply of bodies
may be redundant, so as to occasion negligence, as in the hospitals abroad ? — Un-
questionably, the supply may be so great that students are likely to be less attentive.
199*. So far from promoting science, such a redundant supply would rather
impede it? — It would depend upon the character of the students ; some would profit
according to the abundance of their opportunities of acquiring knowledge. The
English students are in general very industrious.
200. Does that character follow the English student, when he goes abroad to
learn surgery where the supply is abundant? — I believe it does; I have heard it
568. D 4 said,
3- MINUTES OF EVIDENCE TAKEN BEFORE
John Abemcth,, said, that it is remarked by the profession in Paris, the diligence with which the
Esq. English students dissect, in comparison with their own countrymen.
1 «> ' 201. What is the degree of knowledge acquired by pupils brought up in
2S April forci"n hospitals where dissections are frequent, contrasted with the knowledge
l8a8* acquired in the schools here, where dissections are rare ? — I have had no opportunity
of ascertaining.
202. Is it generally understood, that the science of Anatomy is carried to a
greater height in France than it is in England ? — I believe there are some indi-
viduals in France who have wrought at dissection to a greater extent than any in
England, because they possess greater opportunities.
203. You are probably aware that Anatomy is taught at Paris to a large num-
ber of English students, under the superintendence of English surgeons ?— I know
it has been.
204. Do you think that greater facilities to the home supply of bodies would be
preferable to an increased supply from abroad ? — The importation of bodies is quite
out of the question ; I believe the police of Paris would never allow it, it would
be giving a bonus to their competitors.
205. The price being seven shillings in France, and eight guineas in England,
if no impediment were offered to the importation, would there not be a great influx
of bodies into this country? — The police of France would not permit it.
206. Whether the present supply of from 450 to 500 subjects a year be sufficient,
or whether a larger supply be wanted for surgical education, you would equally think
it desirable that the supply should be obtained (if possible) in some other manner
than by exhumation ? — Unquestionably I do, for it is a national disgrace.
207. Would it not be more advantageous to the students to have the dissection
of the bodies of persons whom they attended in illness, than those of strangers ? —
Most certainly.
208. Should the law, in your opinion, be compulsory, or only permissive, which
sanctioned the giving up, by "public establishments, of unclaimed bodies ; and should
not such a law apply equally to the bodies of all who died in such establishments, to
whatever class they might belong? — Certainly permissive; I have this feeling, that
so strong is the necessity, that so much public injury must be done by ignorance of
Anatomy, that so correspondent with the principles of justice is it, that those who
have been sustained in illness and infirmity at the public charge, and who conse-
quently die in debt to the public, should have their bodies claimed and converted to
the public good, that I myself should not hesitate, if I were a member of the
Honourable House, to move for leave to bring in a bill to legalize such a pro-
ceeding, and to give power to the Colleges of Physicians and Surgeons, and the
teachers of Anatomy, to demand the body of any friendless pauper who had been
maintained at the public charge ; for in that case no feeling is violated.
209. Any friendless pauper dying- in a workhouse or a hospital ?— Any where.
210. You do not think you should get that supply, without a law authorizing the
demanding of the body? — I have stated it as my firm belief, that if it was supposed
by the public that such a legislative enactment Mas in contemplation, die directors of
poor houses, and hospitals and prisons would make a general order to that effect ; and
certain it is, if bodies that were buried at the public charge should be consigned as
subjects for anatomical instruction, the supply would then be more than sufficient.
211. You would consider it prudent and expedient in that case, that the surgeon
having the use of the body, should afterwards give it decent and christian burial? —
I would have the strongest obligation imposed upon him so to conduct the business
in every respect as not to give the least offence to public feeling ; he should enter
into a bond to that effect, and to a considerable amount.
21 2. Would you not accompany this with very severe penalties on every governor
of a workhouse or prison giving up a body to the surgeons, where the friends do claim
it? — Unquestionably; but claims may be made by pretended friends, and there
should be an allowance for the examination of such bodies.
213. Even though they are claimed? — Yes, certainly; in an hospital we may
attend a patient for many months watching every turn of his disease, feeling also
most anxious to know its nature, and if we are debarred from examining the body, it
must be a great impediment to the progress of medical science.
214. Knowing how the law, as interpreted at a late trial at Lancaster, is likely
to bear on professional men who dissect bodies, do you not think it a great hardship
28 April
SELECT COMMITTEE ON ANATOMY. 33
on men of character and education that they should be able to obtain the means of John Abtmtthy,
instruction only by a violation of the law ? — Unquestionably I do. ^ E*<1-
21.5. While the law still attaches the stigma of a crime to dissection, do you think
the public feeling is ripe for such a change as that contemplated, namely, that the
unclaimed poor should be dissected, their only fault being their poverty or misfortune ?
— I do not think that the penalty of dissection, in conjunction with that of crime,
has any kind of operation on the public mind.
2 it). You do not diink that public feeling would be outraged in any way by
such a change ? — I do not believe that the change proposed would at all affect the
feelings of the public.
William Larvrence, Esq. called in ; and Examined.
217. YOU are surgeon to St. Bartholomew's Hospital? — I am. William Lawrence,
21 8. Having heard the evidence of some of the former witnesses, will you state to Esq-
the Committee any thing which has occurred to you, either as to the inconveniences ~
to which the profession are subject, or as to the remedies which you think ought to
be applied ? — I think that very great inconvenience exists at present from the insuffi-
cient supply of bodies for dissection, and that it is highly desirable that some
method should be taken to remedy the deficiency; I should concur with the obser-
vations made by Sir Aslley Cooper, so far as I heard his evidence ; and Mr. Brodie
and Mr. Abernethy in respect of devoting the unclaimed bodies of persons dying in
public establishments ; this seems to me the only mode by which the object can be
accomplished.
219. There appears to be a difference of opinion as to the number of subjects
necessary, on the average, for each pupil to dissect; what is your opinion on that
point ? — I should think it desirable that a student who is going through his education
as a professional man, more particularly if he is to practise surgery, should be ahle to
employ three or four bodies annually for dissection and other purposes. A smaller
number than that might be considered to be barely sufficient.
220. Do you know what is the number each pupil dissects at Paris ? — I under-
stand there is an unlimited supply, that a person employs as many as he likes.
221. With respect to the practice of exhumation, does any thing particular occur
to you? — Nothing more than the obvious observation, that it is a violation of the
law, and must be conducted by men of the most abandoned character ; they are,
generally speaking, capable of any crime.
222. And whom, instead of employing, it is desirable, if possible, to exterminate
from society? — Undoubtedly.
223. What is the present price of bodies? — .The last that I purchased, I gave ten
guineas a piece for.
224. What price did they bear formerly ? — When I began the study of Anatomy,
they were at two guineas and a half, and a sufficient quantity of them could generally
be procured at that price. The number of students in London was much less at that
time.
225. Has the price recently fallen? — I am not aware of the price during the last
winter, as I have not had occasion to go into the market; but 1 believe that the price
is from six to ten, twelve, and even fourteen guineas.
226. You have enumerated, as one of the causes of the increase of difficulties,
the increase of the number of pupils in London ; what other difficulties strike you ? —
I apprehend that is the principal cause, that there is a much greater demand than
formerly, and consequently an increased difficulty of supplying it.
227. What is your opinion as to the policy of the bodies of murderers or suicides
being given up for dissection ? — I deem it highly objectionable, as being directly
calculated to maintain and increase the existing prejudices on the subject ; it gives
the most powerful sanctions, those of the legislature and judicature, to the horror
and aversion which mankind are perhaps naturally disposed to entertain against
what they deem a profanation of the dead.
228. That would apply still more strongly to the case of suicides ? — At least as
strongly.
229. If the suggestion that the bodies of all unclaimed poor be given up to dis-
section, were acted upon, would you see any objection to maintaining the existing
law in force, or even strengthening it, against exhumation? — I should conceive
none at all ; the crime would no longer exist.
230. You think the supply would be sufficient? — I conceive that it would be ample.
568s E 131. And
34 MINUTES OF EVIDENCE TAKEN BEFORE
muiam Lawrence, 23]' -And that the law relating to exhumation might remain in its present state ?
Esq. — Certainly.
v J~ J 232. Do you think it necessary to have a positive law, calling upon the governors
28 April of workhouses to give up the bodies or friendless poor ; could not such an arrange-
1828. ment be niat|c without that? — I think, if the proposition was tolerated by persons
in influence, the thing could be done without any positive law ; some of the ma-
nagers of such places may be prejudiced, and entertain narrow opinions upon the
subject, but not generally.
233. A learned judge has stated it to be an offence against the law to have any
body, other than that of a murderer, in possession for the purpose of dissection ; would
the repeal of that law, in your opinion, attain the desired end? — I think it would
materially contribute ; the law on this subject is at present inconsistent, and some
change is obviously necessary ; the Colleges of Physicians and Surgeons, which are
bodies recognized by the law, require that persons should produce certificates of
having actually performed dissections before they will admit them to examination
for diplomas and licenses, which are absolutely necessary for practising, holding
various public situations, and for other purposes ; yet, if I rightly understand some
recent judicial decisions, the having a body in possession for the purpose of that
dissection which the above-named legally authorized establishments require, is in
itself a crime, and punishable by fine and imprisonment.
234. Is it not considered a great hardship by the profession that they should be
subject to an indictment for a misdemeanor for doing that which, as professional men
and as teachers, it is their duty and necessary that they should do ? — I conceive it is
a great hardship ; a man cannot understand, and he certainly ought not to practise,
the medical profession, without the diligent study of Anatomy by actual dissection.
235. The law, as it at present stands, is a degradation of the profession? — I con-
ceive so ; it places a stigma on what ought to be encouraged, and to be considered
as a ground of respect.
236. Is your conviction of the importance of teaching Anatomy and Surgery by
dissection so strong, that unless another method be devised for obtaining a supply of
bodies, the practice of exhumation ought, in your opinion, to continue to be tole-
rated?— Yes ; bodies must be obtained.
237. But you consider it highly desirable, if possible, to supersede that practice?
— Highly desirable.
238. Before endeavouring to introduce the practice of giving up unclaimed
bodies for dissection, would it not be desirable, as a preparatory step, to repeal that
enactment which associates crime and its ignominy with dissection? — Certainly.
239. Do you anticipate any indisposition, on the part of patients or their friends,
to their being sent to hospitals, in case of the unclaimed bodies being given up in
every instance to dissection? — Not the least; I quite agree with Mr. Abernethy
upon that point.
240. Do you find much indisposition in the higher classes to subject the bodies of
their relatives after death to examination, when representations are made that the
interests of science require it ? — I have found more among the higher than the
lower.
241. How many years ought a pupil to be pursuing his studies in London? —
The generality of pupils pass two anatomical sessions; that may be said to be the
general practice. In order to make a person thoroughly acquainted with anatomy
and other branches of medical science, several years are necessary.
242. Do you think that a student ought to be permitted to practise before he has
dissected between four and six bodies? — I do not think he ought; I should be
sorry he should operate upon me unless he had done so.
243. From what you know of the education of foreign medical students, what is
your opinion of their qualifications when first they are permitted to proceed to prac-
tice?— They are much better qualified in Anatomy than the English; anatomical
knowledge is much more diffused, and carried to a higher extent, in France, Germany,'
and Italy, than in this country ; the cause being partly the greater facility of pro-
curing subjects for dissection in those countries.
244. Do you not consider it essential to a good course of surgical instruction that
the student should perform upon the dead body those operations which he will after-
wards be required to perform on the living? — I consider it essential ; operations
cannot be performed on the living body without the risk of serious and even fatal
errors, unless the surgeon shall have acquired a knowledge of Anatomy generally,
and have repeatedly operated on the dead subject.
245. Are
SELECT COMMITTEE ON ANATOMY. Z5
245. Arc you in the habit of seeing many of the eminent foreign surgeons and William Laurence,
anatomists who come to this country ? — I see many medical persons from France, Esq.
Germany, and Italy, and have found, from my intercourse with them, that Anatomy ~— - — J
is much more successfully cultivated in those countries than in England ; at the same 28 April
time I know, from their numerous valuable publications on Anatomy, that they are
far before us in this science ; we have no original standard works at all worthy of
the present state of knowledge.
246. You consider that to be partly owing to the greater opportunity of pro-
curing subjects?— Yes, principally.
247. Can you speak to their operations? — Not from personal observation ; I find
the foreigners who visit this country are generally better informed in Anatomy than
we are.
248. What is your opinion as to the proficiency of the English students, who after
studying in the foreign schools come to practice in this country ? — They are the best
class of students we have ; they receive a good education in England, and then pur-
sue their studies abroad; they are persons who can afford to expend more money on
their education than the generality of students.
245. It would be impossible for them, under present circumstances, to complete
their "education to so high a state of proficiency in this country? — The expense
would be very great; and besides this, the medical schools and other establishments
on the Continent afford great opportunities of acquiring knowledge in all branches
of medical science, with every facility of access.
250. Casteris paribus, you would say, that those who possess the greatest oppor-
tunities of dissection would be the best qualified I — -Certainly ; I know that many
English students have been to Paris on this account, and have returned with im-
portant acquisitions of knowledge.
25 1 . You consider that the poor are much more interested in this question than
the rich ? — Yes ; the poor must take such assistance as lies nearest, while the rich
can purchase the aid of the best informed.
Juris, 1° die Moij, 1828.
Henry Field, Esq. Deputy Warden of the Society of Apothecaries, called in ;
and Examined.
252. WILL you produce a statement of the number of pupils who have passed
their examination before the Apothecaries Company, and the number of those re-
jected, in 1827? — Between the 1st of January 1827, and the 31st of December ~~^\\
1827, four hundred and nineteen persons received, from the court of examiners
of the Society of Apothecaries, certificates of their fitness and their qualification
to practice.
253. Can you state the number in former years? — There was an account pre-
sented to the House of Commons which carries this down to the 29th of March 1 825
(The Paper N" 232, of the Session of 1825); our accounts are made out to the
1st of August annually; after the time of passing the Bill, between the 25th of
March 1825 and the 1st of August of the same year, four hundred and five
persons received certificates of their fitness and qualifications to practise as apothe-
caries ; between the 1st of August 1825, and the 31st of July 1826, four hundred
and forty-five persons received certificates of their fitness and qualifications to
practise as apothecaries ; from the 1st of August 1826, to the 31st of July 1827,
four hundred and eighteen persons received from the court of examiners of the
Society of Apothecaries, certificates of their fitness and qualifications to practise.
As to rejections, from the 25th of March 1825 to the 31st of July in the same
year, eight persons were rejected; between the 1st of August 1825 and 31st of.
July 1826, forty-three persons were rejected; between the 1st of August 1826
and the 31st of July 1827, forty-seven persons were rejected.
254. Can you state to the Committee whether actual dissection is one of the
qualifications required ? — I had the honor to be one of the court of examiners some
years, but I am not aware that actual dissections are required ; there is nothing
said about it in the printed particulars. I have with me a copy of the present
regulations.
[The Witness delivered in the same.— See Appendix, N" XI.]
255. It appears from this that the candidate is required to attend two courses
- 568. E 2 of
3f» MINUTES OF EVIDENCE TAKEN BEFORE
Henry Field, of Lectures on Anatomy, but is not required to have dissected? — I apprehend
Esq- ___, that to be the case.
""" 256. Has it ever occurred to the court of the Apothecary's Company that, for
1 g g^ general practice, dissection would be an important part of education ? — No doubt
dissection would be an important part ; but it has not been insisted on. Our
examination does not apply to surgery in the strict sense of the word, it is to the
practice of medicine only, and therefore physiology is that which we more particularly
. look to.
257. Do not those persons who are examined by you, and obtain certificates
to practise as apothecaries, usually act also as surgeons in the country ? — As a matter
of opinion I bave no doubt many of them do, without going through the College of
Surgeons in London.
2.58. Would not dissection be an important branch of knowledge to them ? — I have
no doubt it would; the Society of Apothecaries were desirous to encroach by their
regulations as little as possible on the College of Surgeons ; dissection is much more
important with the surgeons, whose practice is in relation to accidents and external
diseases. 1 have a paper in my hand, containing the names of some provincial
schools of anatomy, from which we receive certilicaies ; our regulations are, that
they shall be derived from certain quarters only, of whose capability of communi-
cating this knowledge we have received satisfactory information.
259. What are the provincial schools from which the examiners of the Apothe-
caries Company are in the habit of receiving certificates? — At Liverpool two schools
of Anatomy, at Manchester three, at Birmingham one, at Bristol one, at Sheffield
otie, and at Leeds one; and the schools also in the Universities of Oxford and
Cambridge, and in the Universities and from the private teachers in Dublin and
Edinburgh, also the Anatomical schools at Paris, are recognized by the court of
examiners at Apothecaries Hall.
260. Have you any means of ascertaining what proportion of candidates who take
out their diploma at the Apothecaries Company, also take out their diploma from
Surgeon's Hall? — Certainly not.
2(ii. What do you suppose to be the legal effect on a person taking out a diploma
from the Apothecaries Company, and not from the College of Surgeons, in case he
practises as a surgeon ? — I am afraid it is in his power to operate wherever he
pleases ; the authority of the College of Surgeons extends no further than seven
miles from London, and they have only a charter, not an Act of Parliament ; there-
fore those persons may practice in anv part of the kingdom without taking out a
certificate from the College of Surgeons, the charter having not sufficient power to
enable the surgeons to prosecute; an Act of Parliament would, and they had an
Act of Parliament some years ago, which is unfortunately lost: since that, they have
not been able to obtain one.
2t>2. Is not a general practitioner constantly liable to be called upon in the country
to perform the most difficult operations on patients under his care? — If he professes
himself to be a surgeon and apothecary ; probably in the country there are some
gentlemen who confine themselves to the different branches only, as some of us do
in London.
263. All the gentlemen who present themselves to you, are acquainted with prac-
tical anatomy, are they not? — So far we require as to take care that they bring
certificates of their having attended so many courses of lectures ; then they are
personally examined in Anatomy; so that whether they have attended those
courses in such a manner as to answer a valuable purpose, is discovered by the
examination.
264. Where does the examination take place? — At Apothecaries Hall.
265. Do you think that a person could answer the questions without having
had a course of practical Anatomy ? — We should not admit them to examination
at all, unless they had attended two courses of lectures on Anatomy.
Joseph Henry Green, Esq. called in ; and Examined.
266. YOU are a surgeon to St. Thomas's Hospital, and a teacher of anatomy
and surgery there? — 1 am.
- J, 267. Would the number of students at St. Thomas's be greater or less than it is at
present, if a greater number of bodies were to be had for the purpose of dissection?
■ — I presume greater.
26S. Have you found anydifficulty in obtaining the requisite number of subjects? —
Very great difficulty.
269. What
J. H. G
SELECT COMMITTEE ON ANATOMY. 37
269. What is the present price of subjects ? — Nine guineas.
270. Is it higher or lower at present than you remember it to have been formerly?
— The lowest within my experience has been four guineas, and the highest fourteen.
271. To what do you ascribe its being lower at present than it has been ? — That
at times there were particular combinations of the resurrection men, accidental cir-
cumstances, that lately have not been met with.
272. Do you think that one of the causes of the price being now lower, may be,
that in consequence of the high price of subjects the number of pupils entering for
dissection has been materially diminished, and therefore the demand for subjects
decreased?— I think that is possible, but I have no data on which to give any cer-
tain information on that point.
273. Is there not a dissecting room attached to St. Thomas's Hospital ? — There is.
274. Do you know whether the number of patients entering the hospital for relief
■has been diminished in consequence of a dissecting establishment being attached to
the hospital ? — Certainly not, a great many more apply every week for admission
than can be possibly admitted.
275. Are the patients in the habit of expressing any anxiety on the subject of
their bodies being examined in case of their dying in the hospital ? — They may, but
I know of no facts in support of that ; and I know of one fact to the contrary,
where one of the patients left her body for dissection in the hospital ; it is to be
-observed, however, that examinations are not made without the permission of friends
or the order of the coroner.
276. How long ago is it that the dissecting establishment was attached to the
hospital?— I can scarcely say, but half a century, 50 years I should think.
277. Are the pupils at St. Thomas's in the habit of being taught to perform ope-
rations on the dead bodies 1 — Very partially, for from the great expense of bodies, the
pupils are not willing to obtain them for the mere purpose of performing operations ;
therefore they seldom make any other use of them than that of dissecting the parts,
for the purpose of ascertaining the structure of such parts as may be concerned in
operation.
278. Do you not consider it an essential part of a good course of professional
education, to be learnt previously to performing operations on the living bodv, to
perform the principal operations on the dead body ? — Certainly.
279. The difficulty of obtaining subjects is the sole reason why that practice is
not made general ? — The sole reason.
280. How many bodies upon the average in the year would you allot to each
individual entering for dissection? — If I were to state what would be required for
each pupil as to bodies, I would say three ; but at the same time certainly there are
some parts which, in going over a body of this sort, might be possibly omitted, though
it would be very advantageous to the pupil likewise to go over them.
281. Do you reckon three bodies for each pupil? — I think to have such infor-
mation upon the subject as renders him a safe practitioner, certainly.
282. Do you reckon on the pupil performing the operations on the dead body? — •
Yes, I should say, two bodies for dissection and one for the performing of operations.
283. How many pupils are there in the hospital? — Average about ninety.
284. What is your opinion of the character of the men employed in procuring
bodies for the dissecting schools ? — That they are of the worst description ; some
of them have been actually thieves, and certainly men of very bad character.
285. Is exhumation the sole occupation of the greater number of the persons
employed in obtaining bodies? — I fancy not; I fancy that they have other means
in general, I have heard so.
286. In case of prosecutions being instituted against the e\iiumators, and in case
of their being imprisoned, are not the dissecting schools called upon to pay extra
expenses? — Yes.
287. Is it not a distressing thing to gentlemen of character and education to be
obliged to have recourse to persons of this description for obtaining the necessary-
means of giving instruction to their pupils?- Certainly ; it really made me for some
years, when I had the immediate conducting of the business, I may say quite
unhappy
288. Is not the general effect of the legal difficulties to which anatomical teachers
are subject, sufficient to make their situation extremely irksome? — Yes.
289 Does not evhumation tend to increase the existing prejudices against dis-
section ? — I conceive so, very materially.
290. Have you ever considered what is the effect of giving up the bodies of
568. E 3 murderers
38 MINUTES OF EVIDENCE TAKEN BEFORE
J. H. Green, murderers for dissection, as regards the state of public feeling on this subject? —
^' Yes, I conceive it tends materially to strengthen the prejudice against dissection.
291. The giving up of suicides would have the same effect, perhaps, in your
18 8* opinion ? — Yes, in short to make an anatomist the executioner of the laws, must
certainly tend to create an odium against us.
292. Have you ever considered what other sources of supply might be had recourse
to for the purpose of obtaining bodies?— The bodies of persons unclaimed by re-
lations or friends, the bodies of persons dying under similar circumstances in gaols,
certain descriptions of convicts and criminals, and perhaps some might be imported.
. 293. Can you go into larger detail as to any of the sources of supply which you
have mentioned? — I have made some inquiries with regard to our hospital and the
Borough parishes with regard to the number of persons dying there that are un-
tlaimed. With respect to St. Thomas's Hospital, however, it is to be observed
that security is required, that if the patients shall die there, they will forthwith take
away the patient's body, or pay the fees of his funeral to the steward of the said
hospital ; therefore, the friends are so far interested in the object of removing many
bodies that might otherwise be brought into the dissecting room.
294. You think it would be useful to repeal that regulation ? — Yes, I conceive so
but the answer made to me when I have put it to the authorities of the hospital is,
that the hospital would become chargeable with persons who are paralytic, and can-
not be removed ; but otherwise it would be certainly desirable to get rid of that re-
Appendix, N" 17. gulation. Here is a return of the number of patients who have died in St. Thomas's
Hospital in the last ten years, distinguishing those removed from the hospital by
their friends and securities; and the number of those buried in the hospital burving-
ground, separating those buried at the cost of their friends and securities, the se-
veral parishes, the corporation of the City of London and the Victualling Office,
and the unclaimed bodies buried at the cost of the hospital. The number of un-
claimed bodies buried at the cost of the hospital has been, from the year 1818 to
the year 1827, sixty-five ; but it will be understood that those who are buried at the
cost of the City of London might be made available in many instances to our pur-
poses, if they were not required to pay for the burial. On the whole, it does not
appear from the account I have here, that perhaps more than twelve bodies could be
annually given up for dissection out of those different sources, under the present re-
gulations of the hospital. It appears that in St. Saviour's parish, from the 1st of
April 1827, to the 1st of April 1828, there were fifteen bodies that were not claimed.
In St. Olave's parish I am informed that the average of unclaimed bodies are
twenty-six per annum ; but the number of years is not very accurately given out of
which that average is taken. In St. John's parish, the average number is thirteen;
and in the parish of Christ Church thev return only one, who was found drowned.
295. In all those cases you would only propose to take for dissection the bodies
of those who are unclaimed by their relatives ? — Just so.
296. In those cases you would think it right for the surgeon to give an engage
ment that christian and decent burial should be given to the bodies after dissection-
.-Yes.
297. You always suppose, under those regulations, that any existing penal laws
against dissection should be repealed ? — Yes.
298. Would not internal regulations made by the hospitals be sufficient, without
any new law, to remove existing difficulties? — I have made various efforts in
pointing out that which I thought might be done to facilitate our views, but have
met with difficulties from the authorities of our hospital.
299. Do those difficulties exist in consequence of the state of the laws? — Cer-
tainly not.
. 300. Do you not think that the authorities might change their views possibly
on the subject, if the law were made permissive? — I apprehend they might.
■ 301. So that they might not think they were guilty of any offence in appro-
priating those bodies to the purposes of science? — Yes, just so.
302. Are you aware of the case of " the King v. Young," in which a parish,
officer, a surgeon and another, were indicted andfound guilty of a conspiracy, for
removing, before burial, the body of a pauper from the parish workhouse to a dis-
secting room ? — No, I was not aware of that case.
303. From the knowledge you must have of the feelings of the poor, do you not
think it would answer the general interests of science better, to let the law be simply
pemiisMw, instead of being mandatory, as to the delivering up of a body under
any circumstances?— Yes: : I think the' great object would be to study the feeling-
of
SELECT COMMITTEE ON ANATOMY. 39
of the public ; and though we might not in the first instance obtain a sufficient supply,
that would afterwards follow.
304. Are you aware that many English pupils now go abroad, in consequence of
e facility given at Paris to the study of practical anatomy? — I have known
number who have gone on that account to Paris from our own school.
30.5. Do you think their object has been to improve themselves ? — Directly with
the object and view of improvement.
306. Is it not very expensive to them to be obliged to go abroad ? — No ; they
live cheaply, and have the means of education cheaply.
307. That is of course a loss to the lecturers, and persons engaged in instruction
here? — Certainly so.
305. Supposing that during the period of their attending those courses in London,
which, by the regulations of the College of Surgeons, they must attend in this
country, they could obtain an adequate supply of bodies, their visit to foreign
schools would be rendered unnecessary ? — Yes, certainly ; the College of Surgeons
in their regulations do not require that any certain number of bodies shall be dis-
sected, which appears to be a defect, I think.
309. They require only that they shall have attended two courses of dissection?
—Yes.
310. In the course of your practice, have you perceived any diminution in the
dislike which relatives are supposed to entertain of a professional examination of the
body of the deceased ? — Yes ; I think that is the case, that less prejudice exists at
present than perhaps some few years back.
311. Do you conceive that a dislike either to the examination or dissection of
bodies, exists in a stronger degree among the lower classes of the community than
the higher? — Yes; the middling classes perhaps are upon the whole the most pre-
judiced against it.
312. Do you think that a poor man would consent to a medical practitioner's
operating upon him, if he did not suppose the practitioner to be acquainted with the
structure of the part to be operated on ? — I have no fact on that subject within my
knowledge ; I should think he would not consent to it, if he were aware of the fact.
313. Are not most of the pupils who resort to Paris in order to dissect, aided and
superintended in their studies by English surgeons ? — Yes, there have been two
teachers that I am acquainted with, Mr. King, and Mr. Bennett there.
314. Do you know whether a greater number of them receive instruction from the
English than from French surgeons? — That I cannot say.
315. Do you think it would or would not be expedient to permit magistrates or
officers to give up for dissection the bodies of persons who have committed
suicide? — No ; I should be averse to that.
316. Should you be equally averse to giving up the bodies of those persons only
who are found guilty of suicide? — If only those were given up who were unclaimed,
they would be included under the former class ; but if the bodies of those who have
friends were given up. the law must be rendered mandatory.
317. Upon the whole, would you think it desirable that the people in authority
should be permitted to deliver up the bodies of suicides for dissection? — No, I think
not.
318. Do you think that in the same way that the feelings of the people are ren-
dered adverse to dissection in general by giving up the body of a murderer, they
would also be rendered adverse to it by giving up the body of a suicide ? — Yes, that
is my opinion.
Cesar Hawkins, Esq. called in ; and Examined.
319. YOU are lecturer on Anatomy, and demonstrator in Great Windmill- Cxsar Hawkins,
street ?— Yes. ^ Esq-
320. Have you had many opportunities of knowing what are the causes of the dif- s-'
Acuities now experienced in obtaining dead bodies for dissection ? — The same oppor-
tunities that other teachers have had.
321. Are those difficulties at present very great? — They are much greater than they
were some years ago, though this year perhaps there has not been the same difficulty
as the last year and the previous one.
2,12. To what do you ascribe the increase of the difficulty ? — In a great measure
to the increased severity with which magistrates act in case of any discovery, and
partly also because those constant discoveries which take place, increase the preju-
568. E 4 dices
4o MINUTES OF EVIDENCE TAKEN BEFORE
C<rsar Hawkins, dices of the people against dissection generally^ and cause greater vigilance in endea-
Es1* vours to prevent exhumation.
"^ 323. To what extent does that increased severity on the part of the magistrates,
\siHy which you speak of, go ? — To this extent, that the difficulty of obtaining subjects
by the resurrection men is much increased, they are more frequently punished,
and they meet with greater expenses whenever they attempt to steal them.
324. What have you observed as to the conduct and character of the exhu-
mators ? — Their character is extremely bad, so that every year almost, we hear of
some of them being convicted of other crimes, such as house breaking or stealing.
325. With very few exceptions, have you any doubt that the greater number of
them obtain their livelihood by other means than exhumation ? — A great number
certainly must have other means.
326. Is it not then the duty of the magistrates, inasmuch as the exhumators are
principally thieves, to endeavour as much as possible to put them down ? — Certainly.
327. No blame therefore can possibly attach to the magistracy for exercising
severity against the resurrection men ? — It arises duly from the state of the law,
which prohibits the only modes which remain for obtaining subjects.
328. Has it been considered by the professors at the anatomical schools, that they
were indictable for a misdemeanor, for receiving possession of bodies for dissection,
supposed to have been exhumated ?— I believe it did not occur, it did not to myself,
and probably not to others, till the present year, when a conviction took place w hich
proved we were indictable as accessories in a misdemeanor. The only bodies which
the law recognizes as liable to dissection, being those of murderers, the resurrection
men can only obtain them by illegal modes, and therefore as conniving in an illegal
mode of obtaining them, we are ourselves indictable.
329. Have you any doubt that the professors and students at the different dis-
secting schools, if the law, as now interpreted, were acted upon with strictness, are
all indictable for misdemeanors ? — Every one of them, according to this recent
decision,
330. Have you ever considered what other modes might be had recourse to for
obtaining a supply of bodies ? — I have understood from many inquiries, there are
a great number who die in different eleemosynary institutions, work houses and
hospitals, who die entirely without friends, or merely where persons come to inquire
whether they have left money or clothes which they can claim ; many who die en-
tirely without friends, and others who attend to them, so far as they can profit by
them, but do not attend their funerals afterwards. These might be given up for
dissection.
331. You mean, that those who die wholly without property in the workhouses,
are generally left to be buried at the expense of the parishes? — Certainly; and
some of them have their friends following their funerals, others have not.
332. What number of the students, quitting the schools after the two courses of
dissection required by the rules of the Surgeons College, have performed surgical
operations upon dead bodies ? — I believe scarcely any of those intended to practice
as general practitioners, but only those who mean to devote their attention principally
to operative surgery.
333. Is the number of such considerable? — Very small.
334. Out of a given number, say one hundred, what proportion should you think
would have performed those operations ? — Probably, not above four or five, but
I cannot say exactly.
335. Do you not consider it very desirable, that all the persons who receive cer-
tificates of qualification to practise either as surgeons or as general practitioners,
should be perfectly capable of performing those operations? — Certainly ; indispen-
sable I think; almost all of them are required at times to perform those operations.
336. How many bodies in the course of a year, do you think essential to each
dissecting pupil? — In the course of the education of the students they will vary;
with moderate abilities, I should consider a student should dissect not less than
one and a half, and perhaps another half would be sufficient for the performance of
operations, so that two on an average would be what was required.
337. Do you mean two in the whole course, or two in a year ? — Two in the whole
course of their education, but as some of them stay two years in town, it comes to
the same thing, that the number in a year would be the same as if each student per-
formed his dissections in one year.
338. Do you include in that number, the number required for performing opera-
tions I — Yes, for the generality ; not for those likely to be called upon to perform
difficult
SELECT COMMITTEE ON ANATOMY. 41
difficult operations, such as the operative surgeons alone in general perform ; they
would require more, and in the present state of the times, they do take more.
339. You are stating the lowest number ? — Yes.
340. Are not the dissecting schools also subject to very heavy expenses, in conse-
quence of prosecutions instituted against the resurrection men, or in case of their
being imprisoned ? — Certainly.
341. The dissecting schools, in such cases, are required to make good all the ex-
penses?'— Some of them are ; others remunerate men in prison, by coming forward
as bail, or in other modes ; but in some way or other, we are obliged to make com-
pensation to them.
342. Do the resurrection men in general keep good faith with the professors at
the dissecting schools, or do they after supplying them with bodies, inform against
them as receivers ? — -Their faith is certainly very badly kept; their practice is occa-
sionally to steal bodies, and then to inform against the professors in the manner
mentioned, and against their brother resurrection men still more.
2A3' That is not an unfrequent circumstance, is it? — It is not.
344. That is for the purpose of extorting money, is it not? — It is.
345. This is one of the many inconveniences to which the professional men are
subject from the present and only mode of obtaining subjects ? — Yes, it is.
346. What is your opinion as to the effect which the giving up the bodies of mur-
derers has upon the state of the public feeling? — It has the effect, by making the
public consider dissection as part of the punishment for the crime of murder, of in-
creasing their prejudices.
347. If the laws were so framed as to afford facility for the procurement of bodies,
would not the general feeling of the medical body assist the operation of the law
against those Mho continued the practice of exhumation, even though they could
supply a little cheaper? — I think so certainly, because it would stand to reason that
ultimately that must bring upon us again the same difficulties under which we now
labour.
348. Do you think your object would be sooner attained by passing a law, per-
mitting bodies generally to be given up, than by passing one compelling the surrender
of any particular class of bodies ? — Yes, I think so.
349. You have stated, that you consider the practice of giving up the bodies of
murderers as likely to increase the dislike to dissection : do you consider that the
practice of exhumation has that effect ? — Certainly, 1 do.
350. Do you imagine, that by any new regulations to be adopted by hospitals and
workhouses, such a supply of subjects might be obtained, as to get rid of the practice
of exhumation? — I think with regard to "the hospitals, we should rake this into con-
sideration; in the study of Anatomy there are two objects to be obtained; in the hos-
pitals the students have the means of tracing the diseases to their termination, and
making pathological observations for the improvement of their practice ; the object
in the dissecting schools is to obtain a knowledge of the healthy structure of the
human body ; and on that account, the number obtained from hospitals would be
small in comparison with those which might be obtained from workhouses and gaols
and other sources, not exclusively containing the sick.
351. Would not the consequence of obtaining a sufficient supply of bodies from
the sources you have mentioned be, that the practice of exhumation would be dis-
continued ? — If a sufficient number was obtained from other sources, that practice
would be discontinued as unnecessary and revolting.
352. What part of the community do you think suffers most, from the discou-
ragement given to anatomical studies by the defective state of the law? — Un-
doubtedly, the poor and the middling classes; the upper classes of society, generally
employ men who have had better modes of education.
353. If the means of dissection were more extended, would there be fewer or
more operations on the living body ? — I should hope much fewer, in consequence
of the additional information we should obtain as to the mode of curing diseases.
354. Is not the ignorant practitioner most likely to have recourse to violent and
unnecessary modes of treatment? — A person who is ignorant of the mode of perform-
ing operations, will very often leave his patients to such a stage, that the operation
w^ould become useless ; he would put it off to the last, instead of performing it at the
proper time ; though in some instances, surgeons would perform operations, where,
if they were better informed, they would see that they were unnecessary.
355. Those who are the mostinterested in this are the public, and not the practi-
tioners?— They are so, certainly.
568. F 363. Is
42 MINUTES OF EVIDENCE TAKEN BEFORE
Ctaiflr Bawkm, 35^. Is there any thing that you wish to add? — If you will allow me, I will make
I'-sq- one or two observations on the obtaining bodies from gaols, or by importation from
x ' abroad: for the same reason, that it is not advisable that the bodies of murderers
i May an[j suicit](.s should be given up for dissection, I think the measure should not be
compulsory on those in gaols, but that only the bodies of those who have no friends
should be given ; and with regard to obtaining bodies from abroad, I have fre-
quently had them from that source; and in the generality of instances, they have
been useless, from the time which has elapsed during their passage; and if any number
were attempted to be imported, it is obviously the interest of the countries from
which they are obtained, to put a stop to the practice, and that has been done in
the only two countries from which it has been attempted; it is their interest to keep
them in their own country for their own schools, and to prevent the exposure which
takes place by the removal.
357. What are the two countries to which you allude' — France and Ireland.
358. The consequence of so small a portion of the bodies imported, coming in
a fit state, is, that it renders those bodies as expensive as those obtained by exhuma-
tion ? — In my own case it has so happened, and would in others very frequently.
359. Had any antiseptic process been adopted? — In some cases it had been, but
not in all, as it rather tended to increase the chance of detection.
Herbert Mayo, Esq. called in ; and Examined.
Herbert Mayo, 360. YOU are surgeon to the Middlesex Hospital, and lecturer on Anatomy in
Esq- Great Windmill-street? — I am.
u ~ ' 261. Have you heard the evidence given by Mr. Green and Mr. Hawkins, and
do you generally concur in their statements? — I have heard their evidence, and do
quite concur in that which they have stated.
3G2. Do you agree with them, that three bodies in the course of two years for
each pupil would be about the number sufficient? — I think that two would be suf-
ficient, as Mr. Hawkins stated ; Mr. Green estimated the number at three.
363. In this number of two, do you include the number necessary for teaching the
operations that are afterwards to be performed on the living? — Yes, I do ; from
two to three at all events.
364. Do you concur in the opinion, that the giving up the bodies of murderers
for dissection tends to aggravate the state of public feeling against dissection ? — ■
I have little doubt that that is the case.
365. Have you any data as to the number of subjects that might be obtained from
the workhouses ? — I have very iew data that I have acquired myself ; but from the
Middlesex Hospital I happen to know that a small number may be obtained, and
about an equal number from Saint Martin's parish ; while from the general in-
formation I have received respecting other sources of the same description, I have
no doubt the number that could be so obtained, would be much larger than would be
required.
366. Have you any thing to state to the Committee as to the evils which the
present difficulties of obtaining subjects give rise to, or any remedy to suggest as
to the means of providing a supply ? — I have nothing to add to that I have already
heard suggested.
367. Is any considerable supply likely to be obtained from the sales of bodies by
parties living, or from bequests of bodies? — From my own experience among the
lower class of society, I am inclined to think there would not be any material supply
from that source.
368. Is it the general wish of the profession to assist the magistrates in
abolishing the practice of exhumation? — It is so, certainly.
369. You have resided at Leyden, as a student, have you not ? — I resided at
Leyden during two years as a student.
370. What information can vou give to the Committee as to the mode of obtaining
a supply of bodies for the dissecting schools there ? — The dissecting school of Leyden
was supplied directly from the civil hospitals, at Amsterdam ; they appeared to be
brought within eight-and-forty hours after the decease.
371. Was an ample supply procured? — A perfectly ample supply.
372. What was the number of pupils studying in the dissecting schools there? — ■
To the best of my recollection, I should think about an hundred.
373. Do you remember what was the number of bodies that was supplied for the
use
SELECT COMMITTEE ON ANATOMY. 43
use of those students ? — I cannot state what the number of bodies employed was, Herbert Mayo,
but there was no stint at all to the supply ; that 1 recollect perfectly. Esq.
374. Should you say that each pupil was supplied with two bodies? — I should * — — ~"/
think at that rate ; probably more. 1 May
• 375- What course of education were the pupils required to go through, before they l8:8'
were qualified to practise in Holland either as surgeons or physicians? — 1 cannot
give any exact information on that subject ; I do not know the length of residence
required of native students at the university.
376. Were the students there required to perform surgical operations upon the
dead bodies? — They did perform operations on the dead bodies, but I am not aware
whether it was required of them by the rules of the university.
377. Was it under the cognizance of government that this supply of bodies was
obtained from Amsterdam ?— I understood it to be so.
378. No other source of supply was necessary, that being ample? — It was ample.
379. Are you aware whether there was a similar feeling at Leyden respecting
dissection, to that in England? — Apparently there was no prejudice at all; for
in the principal towns in Holland there are lectures on dissection publiclv, and
dissected subjects are exhibited.
380. Was there a hospital at Leyden ? — There was a military hospital, from which
no bodies were obtained ; the general hospital at Leyden was very inconsiderable ;
there were not above thirty patients, and I never heard of a supply being obtained
from that.
381. Do the public generally attend the lectures on Anatomy in Holland ? — The
public generally attend.
382. Is the process of dissection carried into effect as thoroughly at Leyden as it
is in our schools ? — Quite so.
383. Were the bodies buried, and any funeral rites performed after inspection
or dissection?— Subsequently to their arrival at Leyden nothing further was done
with the body ; no religious ceremony was observed.
384. You say you have not found any prejudice existing on the subject of dissection
in Holland ; do you know whether there is any law in Holland that affixes dissection
as part of the penalty on crime? — I am inclined to think, having no exact in-
formation on the subject, that is not the case ; I recollect while I resided at the
Hague, two persons were executed for murder, and I am quite satisfied I should
have been acquainted with the fact, if they had been given up for dissection, as
I was acquainted with the medical men.
385. Did you ever hear of the practice of exhumation taking place in Holland ? —
Never.
386. You believe it not to have taken place there ? — I believe it not to have taken
place there ; I should most probably have heard of it if it had.
387. To what should you attribute the state of the public feeling which exists
in England ? — I suppose it must greatly depend on dissection being made a part of
the punishment for murder, and likewise owing to the mode in which the bodies are
procured by us in this country, namely, by exhumation ; I never observed any feel-
ing expressed among the poor in reference to examination or dissection in their
own case ; I do not therefore believe that the anticipation of dissection (in case no
friends came forward to claim their bodies for burial) would be a source of distress or
apprehension to patients dangerously ill in work-houses, parochial infirmaries, and the
like ; the argument to which I have adverted, is probably the only argument against
a law permitting or enjoining the directors of parochial establishments to give over
the bodies of those who die, unclaimed by friends, for dissection ; it should be borne
in mind, that surgeons must begin to practice on the poor, as the rich employ those
only who are known to have already practised their art successfully ; it is, therefore,
for the interest of the poo?- especially, that surgeons and practitioners of every kind,
before they commence practising, should be well educated.
James Paterson, M. d. called in ; and Examined.
388. THE Committee understanding that you wish to state to them your j, Paterson, h. d.
opinion as to the possibility of obtaining an ample supply of subjects for dis- ' „ >
section by means of importation, request you now to make that statement? —
The circumstance of my turning my attention to that subject arose from mv
having the honor to belong to the vestry of St. George's Hanover-square;
several gentlemen, particularly Lord Calthorpe, begeed me to turn my attention
568. F 2 to
44 MINUTES OF EVIDENCE TAKEN BEFORE
J. Peterson m. r>. to tne subject, to the best remedy for the difficulty; it was of course a delicate
. i and, in his opinion, a very difficult subject; when I saw his Lordship two days
, ]\jny after, I reported to him that in my opinion, if the thing was cautiously and
1828. prudently conducted, a very ample supply of bodies for anatomical purposes
might be obtained from foreign parts, including Ireland, provided every obstruc-
tion to the admission of them from the custom-house, and every other source
that could obstruct their arriving in safety to the anatomists and surgeons, were
carefully removed ; I found that opinion on the circumstance of having passed a
long life in the West of Scotland, opposite to the coast of Ireland. It is no less
than fifty years since I first began to study medicine, and until I retired from ■
practice, I was in full practice in the county of Ayr; during the whole of that period
I was constantly asked by the parents and relatives of young men intended for the
medical and surgical profession, to assist them with my advice to direct their
studies, and my attention was called to the procuring them subjects for dissection,
which I look upon as essential to the qualifying them for their profession ; I found
in that situation that I had very little difficulty, except that which arose from the
custom-houses, and that, I frankly own, I evaded by smuggling; the facility of
intercourse was so great, that in a few hours a dead body might be procured by
means of the vessels which carry over lime-stone ; the dead body was concealed,
and put into a boat and landed on the coast; I never found any material difficulty ;
I also learned that the Universities, both at Glasgow and at Edinburgh, were
supplied in the same manner by running up the Clyde or landing them at Fairlie ;
but I durst not let it be known to the custom-house officers ; for there was a duty
ad valorem, which appeared to me to be a downright despotic tax, imposed according
to the will of the custom-house officer ; but a still greater obstacle was the antipathy
of the custom-house officers to inspect subjects, in consequence of which, the
moment they discovered one of them, they ordered it to be buried, instead of
forwarding it to its destination. Those circumstances of course led to their being
landed privately on the coast of Scotland ; but I really found there would have
been a very ample supply at a very moderate price ; indeed if there were no obstacles
of that kind interposed, the difference of price was so great, it was quite obvious
on the ordinary commercial rules, they must be to be had ; people used to come
to me, when they understood I wanted a subject for a young man prosecuting
his studies ; a sailor would come to me on the evening, walking about, and say,
do you wish to have a stiffin, I will provide you ; the word I presume is a
stiff one ; and on my saying yes, what terms do you ask, we made the bargain.
389. How did you understand that those bodies were obtained, by exhumation or
otherwise? — I understood that a great many were obtained without exhumation.
390. Are you aware of the difficulties which attend the importation of bodies into
London ?• — I am coming to that ; two years ago I made a tour into France, and I spent
some time in Paris ; I there met with a number of young gentlemen studying medicine,
natives of Scotland, whose relations I had formerly attended as their physician ;
I naturally had a good deal of conversation with them about their studies, and
among other things, about the mode of obtaining subjects. I learnt from them that
subjects might be procured in very considerable quantities, both from Paris and
from the hospital of Rouen, by running them over to the coast of England ; that the
great difficulty was in the custom-house, in the manner I have already stated ; in the
first place the ad valorem duty, and next the anxious disposition of the custom-
house officers to commit to the earth any dead bodv, especially if it was in the
least tainted ; I enquired about the prices, and I understood that in Paris a subject
could be procured for fifteeen or sixteen shillings, consequently the high price in
England would insure an ample supply, if no difficulty was interposed on one
side or the other; I was informed there was no difficulty on the French side of the
channel ; I was informed that they might be forwarded to this country at a reaso-
nable rate, and that by the use of chlorine they could be kept in a proper state
for inspection.
391. Have you any particular mode of preparing bodies to last for a considerable
timer— I have no mode but that which is well known, the use of the bleaching
powder, which is the chloride of lime ; that is quite sufficient.
392. You had a supply from Ireland you say for a considerable time ; are you
aware of any particular prejudice on the part of the Irish against the supply of the
dead bodies of their relatives? — I understood there was a great horror at violating
of tombs in Ireland, but that there was a considerable facility of procuring subjects
without that; that many of the poor people in Ireland, after having waked a body,
$ which
s82S
SELECT COMMITTEE ON ANATOMY. 45
which they look on as a very important matter, for a very moderate sum indeed would j pa/crson, it.
part with it. — I have brought with me a paper I copied from the books of the . —
parish I live in, St. George's Hanover-square ; I have attended a good deal to the j May
sick and poor in that parish for the last two years, as a vestryman and as
belonging to the poor board in that workhouse ; for the last ten years I have an
account of those buried at the expense of their friends, and those buried at the
expense of the parish ; I had not time to make inquiries through the whole ten
years, but I made all the inquiry I could in regard to those who died during the
last year ; they amount to one hundred and seventy-seven ; 1 found that of those
who died within the last year and were buried at the expense of the parish,
twenty-five were unclaimed by any relations, and that of about fourteen of those
there was no tracing of any connection whatever. Poor people wish to avoid the
expense of the funeral, and therefore they do not apply till some time after the
funeral has taken place at the expense of the parish ; they then generally apply for
their clothes, so that it is difficult to know exactly when an application may be made ;
an application has been made nine months after a funeral ; but this paper contains a
correct statement of the whole of the deaths in that workhouse for the last ten years.
[T/ie Paper was given in. — See Appendix, N° 24.]
Richard Dugard Grainger, Esq. called in ; and Examined.
393. YOU are teacher of Anatomy in the school of Webb- street, in the
Eorough? — I am.
. 394. You have heard the statements made by preceding witnesses this day as to the
difficulty of obtaining subjects, and their suggestions as to a better mode of obtaining
a supply : do you concur with them in their statements and suggestions; and if not,
will you state in what you differ from them ? — I should think there could be no
difference of opinion, that of the several sources mentioned, the great source we
ought to depend on, is the unclaimed bodies in this country; I think nothing can be
expected permanently from importation from Ireland or from France. The difficul-
ties which at present exist, frequently stop the whole dissections of a class for a
month, or five or six weeks.
• 395. It is not then merely on account of the expense that the present system may be
objected to, but that very often, whatever price be paid, a supply of subjects
cannot be obtained ? — It is quite insufficient.
396. Have you had occasion frequently to have intercourse with the persons com-
monly called resurrection men ? — I have.
397. What is your opinion as to their character? — They are certainly the very
worst part of society ; they have very frequently been noted thieves, felons and
so forth.
39S. What is your opinion as to the number of subjects that are absolutely neces-
sary for a dissecting pupil in the course of a year ? — I think not less than two for
each student in the year.
399. How many in the whole course of his instruction? — If it is confined, as it is at
present, to two winters, three ; but my opinion is that there is a great defect in
medical education, in so short a time being allowed for the study of Anatomy, when
five or six years are devoted to learning dispensing behind the counter, which
might be learnt in two years, whilst only two winters are allowed for all the
important knowledge to be obtained in the schools.
400. When you speak of three as a proper supply, do you include in that number
the subjects necessary for the pupil to operate upon, in order that he may make
himself master of the operations on the living body ? — I do.
401. Have you actually imported bodies for the purpose of dissection? — I have,
from Ireland.
402. Will you state whether the bodies arrived in a state of freshness, fit for dis-
section ? — Very few.
403. What are the difficulties which present themselves in reckoning- upon importa-
tion from Ireland as a source of supply ? — First of all there are the obstacles thrown
into the way of conveying bodies to any place by officers and all other persons,
who will stop them if they possibly can; and whatever be the state of the law,
I conceive the great distance, and the uncertain communication between Dublin
and London, must render it extremely doubtful whether the bodies can be brought
to this country at all fit for dissection.
568. F3 404- Can
46 .MINUTES OF EVIDENCE TAKEN BEFORE
R. D. Grainger, 4°4- Can Ml adequate supply be obtained in Ireland? — I should doubt that
Esq. very much.
v- v/ ' 405. Is it not the interest of the teachers in Dublin, by reason of the great resort
1 lUny to their schools of students in Anatomy, to secure to themselves exclusively the
i8a8. supply which hitherto has been found so abundant? — Undoubtedly; to my own
knowledge that is the case ; I know that the professors in Dublin would stop it at
onto, the moment they discovered it ; whatever bodies have been sent from Dublin,
have been obtained without their knowledge.
406. Arc any difficulties interposed by the masters of vessels, if they discover the
nature of what the package contains? — I have certainly found that they would not
take any package, if they suspected that it contained a dead body.
407. If a supply could be obtained from this channel, by what course would the
bodies be sent to London ? — The most certain way is that by Holyhead, for that is
the shortest sea passage, and certainly in the winter it is very important that the
distance by water should be as short as possible ; they can be sent by Liverpool to
London, but the greater distance by water makes that method more uncertain.
408. Have the custom-house ever interposed any difficulties ? — I have not known
of any impediment at the custom-house, but on the road the packages have been
suspected and detained.
409. Have the police ever interposed any difficulties ? — I have not known any
instances.
410. Have any bodies which you have endeavoured to obtain in that way, been
discovered? — Several on the road have been discovered, and very few which have
arrived, have been fit for dissection.
411. Have those which you have received, been sent by way of Holyhead ? — Yes.
412. Are not the teachers in private schools greater sufferers from the difficulties
that occur in obtaining bodies, than the professors at the public schools attached to the
larger hospitals? — As far as the supply is derived from the resurrection men,
I should think they are nearly on an equality : there are certain means of obtaining
bodies in the hospitals at present, by which of course the hospital schools have the
advantage.
413. The question does not refer merely to the advantage which the supply from the
hospital may afford ; a private teacher of course, if he can afford to pay the same
price to the exhumator as the hospital teacher, will have the same facilities for
obtaining bodies ; but if the teacher at one of the hospital schools has the free use,
without rent, of the theatre and dissecting room, and also shares in the fees of the
students attending the hospital wards, will he not be better enabled to incur a loss
upon every subject that he purchases at a high price and sells again at a moderate
one to his dissecting pupils, than the teacher in a private school not possessed of
such advantages ? — Undoubtedly.
414. Therefore the teachers in the private schools are those who suffer most in
consequence of the difficulty of obtaining supplies ? — I conceive so.
415. Is it not the case that many teachers of private schools have been obliged to
retire and give up their teaching, in consequence of this difficulty ?— Several have, and
I conceive it most probable that this difficulty may have been the most influential
cause ; I am not aware of any certain fact, but I conceive that this has been the
principal cause.
41 6. Have not the teachers, in the schools attached to the hospitals, the dissecting
rooms and the whole dissecting establishment found for them at the expense of the
hospital? — The whole of the buildings, I believe, in every hospital ; but I cannot
speak with certainty on that point ; Sir Astley Cooper and Mr. Cline contributed
to the erection of the buildings, I believe, five hundred or a thousand pounds
each.
417. Are you aware of the way in which the bodies you procure from Ireland
are obtained? — They have not been buried, they come from the hospitals and some_
of the larger establishments there, and certainly they have not been interred.
418. The general wish of the medical men is to get rid of the practice of exhu-
mation r — Undoubtedly.
419. Do you not think that by giving greater facilities to the voluntary appro-
priation of bodies to the purpose of dissection, effect will be given to the same de-
gree to the law for the protection of the grave ? — Certainly; I doubt very much, in
the present state of public feeling, whether any voluntary power would produce a
sufficient supply; I think there must be something compulsory as to those persons
who die without friends.
420. Do
SELECT COMMITTEE ON ANATOMY. 47
420. Do you think that the abolition of the law h hich gives up the body of a mur-
derer to the anatomical schools, would tend to mitigate that feeling which exists
among the different classes of society against the bodies of their friends and relatives
being dissected ? — I think that would operate most powerfully.
421. You state that there has been a frequent interruption in the course of your
lectures from the want of bodies ? — Not in the lectures, but in the course of dis-
section.
422. Is not that very prejudicial to the course of science? — Undoubtedly; it
generally takes place at the beginning of the season, which is the most valuable time,
because the pupils are then most inclined to attend ; if they remain idle for six weeks
or two months, or a longer period, the taste may then have passed off, and this idleness
may have been injurious to them by producing bad habits.
423. You have stated that bodies imported frequently arrive in too putrid a state
for dissection ; is there not any antiseptic process which would protect the bodies
against that degree of putrefaction?— There are several modes; but those which I
have seen tried, will preserve the body ; but they alter it so considerably, that it loses
its value for giving a knowledge of the healthy structure of the different parts.
424. Would the antiseptic process preserve the viscera as well as the trunk ? —
Certainly not some of the viscera.
425. What is the price you now pay for a body ? — On an average at least eight
guineas and a half.
426. How high do you remember it to have been ? — Some subjects have cost me as
much as twelve sovereigns, or more; for one resurrection-man alone I incurred an ex-
pense of 50/. in consequence of allowing him a certain sum per week for two years
while he was in prison; during the present season I have expended several guineas
in supporting another man's family while he was in prison; these expenses fall, not
on the pupils, but on the lecturers ; for if bodies are to be obtained, we must pro-
mise to take care of these men when they are in trouble.
427. Would the anatomical professors in general concur in an undertaking to give
decent christian burial with funeral rites, to the remains of those on whom they had
operated I — Most undoubtedly.
428. Is there any further statement you wish to make on this subject? — As to the
importation from any foreign country, there is no doubt if it was made a public affair
between the two countries, the government of France would, in my opinion, imme-
diately stop it ; in addition to which, in the case of war, all supply must of course be
stopped; and I believe the supply during peace could never be carried on with
certainty.
429. You have stated that you do not think a law, simply permitting persons to give
up the bodies that are unclaimed, would be sufficient to afford an adequate supply
of subjects to the dissecting schools ; do you not think it would be imprudent in the
first instance to introduce a compulsory law, until the public mind became recon-
ciled to that mode of obtaining a supply ? — I think it is extremely important that
the feelings of the public should not be outraged ; and as the impression is against
Anatomy, it would be necessary to be prudent ; but I am afraid if exhumation is
stopped, that for some time at least, unless a compulsory law were passed, the
schools in London would be entirelv stopped.
James Somerville, m. d. called in; and Examined.
430. YOU are assistant to Mr. Brodie at the School of Anatomy in Windmill- j Sometxilk,
street? — I am.
431 • You have heard the evidence of the previous witnesses as to the difficulties of
obtaining subjects, and their suggestions for procuring a supply in future ; would
you wish to make any observations upon what those witnesses have stated? — I wish
to observe, that the prejudice created by giving up murderers is infinitely stronger,
according to my own experience, than has been stated by any witness. Within
a short time, the dissecting room where I am at present, has had the body ot a
murderer ; during the whole course of the last six or seven years that I have
been connected with that school, I have never seen, on any occasion, the least
disposition on the part of the people to interfere or to take notice of that dis-
secting room ; so that the bodies are received there even by day, because there
has been no suspicion entertained ; but since this woman has been received, a sen-
sation has been excited in the neighbourhood ; I have been annoyed by the number
of persons asking permission to go in for the purpose of seeing the body of a person
- 5()S. F4 they
48 MINUTES OF EVIDENCE TAKEN BEFORE
J, Somen i lie, m. d. they thought ;i victim, and the annoyance would he quite sufficient to deter me, Mere
1 - . J the school my own, from admitting a body under similar circumstances.
1 May 432. Does very great difficulty occur in obtaining the necessary supply of bodies at
i8i8. present? — The difficulties. are of that magnitude, that I have Known the school
stopped for six or seven weeks, because bodies could not be obtained at any price.
433. What is the effect on the pupils? — The resurrection men are fully aware, that
when the pupils first come to town, they are very anxious to proceed with their dis-
section ; accordingly they create difficulties, in order to enhance the price ; and the
pupils, not being able to proceed for a certain time, lose their ardour and get into
habits of idleness; dissection towards the middle and end of the season, owing to
loss of zeal from disappointment and consequent idle habits, is not so agreeable to
them as it would be at the commencement.
434. What can you state as to the conduct of the resurrection men, or the gangs into
which they are divided ? — When bodies were easily procured, there were very few
men employed as principals, leaders as they were called. The quarrels which have
since taken place, have split them into many gangs, and those gangs reside exactly
in those neighbourhoods where riot and housebreaking are carried on to the greatest
extent.
435- What is your opinion as to the character and conduct of the resurrection men?
— That they are in the lowest grade in the community, thieves, pickpockets; and the
better class are receivers of stolen goods ; and there are probably not more than
four out of sixty of those men, who subsist by raising bodies; the remainder, I be-
lieve, exist by stealing.
436. Do not the leaders of the resurrection men generally keep a horse and cart,
which at times, when not employed in obtaining bodies, are put to other uses? — They
must in their avocation keep a horse and cart, that is on the pretence of their being
resurrection men, while, in fact, it is often for the purpose of housebreaking.
437. Is not the pretence of carrying about bodies, which the police may possibly be
less anxious to notice than other infractions of the law, very often made the cover
for transporting stolen goods ? — Several instances of that nature are well known to
the police.
438. What is your opinion as to the possibility of obtaining a supply of bodies by-
sale or bequest? — That would be found entirely among the lower order of Irish, who
I believe conceive that their duties to the dead are discharged, when the wake is
over.
43<). Have you ever met with any instances of that? — Yes; a woman lately claimed
a child in a workhouse, and after having kept it for three or four days and waked it,
she threw the dead body into the workhouse; another instance occurred, where the
parish authorities, knowing the mischief which followed a wake, resolved not to give
up the body of a person, because the relationship Mas too remote to entitle them to
it ; the Irish went away dissatisfied ; on the day of the interment they attacked the
funeral procession, carried off the corpse and kept it for three days, waked it, and
on the fourth day they put it into a sack and threw it into the workhouse.
440. This occurred in London? — -Yes, in the parish of St. Andrew's, Holborn.
441. Are the surgeons in the habit of purchasing any bodies, either of the parties
themselves before death, or of the relatives of persons deceased ? — They cannot,
according to the present state of the law.
442. Putting the law aside, are they in the practice of advancing money on such
conditions? — They are not.
443. Can you speak as to the obtaining of bodies by importation ? — I can.
444. In what state do the bodies so obtained arrive? — The Secretary of State gave
permission to the custom-house to allow bodies to be imported, and one of the
conditions with the custom-house was, that I should personally superintend it, in
order to prevent the privilege from being converted into a means of smuggling;
accordingly, -when a vessel arrived, having packages with certain marks, they were
claimed by me, and delivered on my responsibility. Every facility was afforded by
the Secretary of State and the custom-house officers, yet the experiment, though
tried very extensively, was a complete failure.
445. From whence were the bodies which you speak of, imported ? — From Dublin
and Paris.
446. Have any difficulties arisen, or are any difficulties likely to arise in future, in
obtaining a supply from those quarters? — As to Paris, it must be at all times very
difficult, since there is a positive law against exporting dead bodies.
447. Do you know of there being a law against exporting bodies, as such, in France?
— From
SELECT COMMITTEE ON ANATOMY. 40
— From having made particular inquiries on the subject, I am satisfied there is a law ; J. Somenilk, m.
and in order to surmount the difficulties arising from it, it was necessary to export N ~~^
them as mummies, having them prepared for the purpose; they were then sealed in 1 May
Paris, to prevent their being opened at Calais ; but on their arrival in this country, lf?'28-
we generally found them in such a putrid condition that they could rarely be used.
We could not hope to continue this experiment without a discovery being made on
board the steam-boat, or on the other side, in which case punishment would follow.
448. Was the police in Paris cognizant of their being bodies ? — Not at all.
449. What difficulties did you meet with on the part of the owners of the vessels?
— We met with no difficulty, so far as the passage from Calais to London was con-
cerned ; but in the experiment of Dublin, the captains of the steam-boats told us,
that a fine of 50 /. would be levied for every dead body found on board their vessels.
450. What was the conduct of the police, on the arriyal of the bodies in London?
— I believe the police, having had information (by whom given we have not found
out), that some bodies were on board the steam-boat, sent jarders to seize those bodies,
and to arrest the person who came to claim them.
451. Did you understand that such arrest, if carried into effect, would have been
legal ? — I understood so, as I immediately went to the Home Office, and told the cir-
cumstances, in order to extricate myself; as some of the police men told the sailors they
had orders to seize me, but to let me first take possession of the goods.
452. Did the Home Office remove all the difficulties? — Immediately.
453. What was the feeling of the porters and those employed on the wharf, on the
discovery that those were dead bodies ? — I must say, in the first place, no bodies can
be brought any distance without a suspicion being raised on the part of the sailors,
who knowing there were bodies on board, kept the secret ; on its being discovered
by the police men, who consequently went on board, the sailors, observing me going
from Greenwich to the steam-boat, sent immediately to give me warning, and prevent
me from running the risk ; they told me that they had done every thing they could
to get the thing hushed up. A body was lately seized at the custom-house in
London, at the Galley Quay, it was exposed to the gaze of at least two or three
hundred persons, bur not one of the men interposed the slightest difficulty to its re-
moval ; but when I presented myself, and told them it was a body which had died
of a curious disease, and came here to be examined, they all offered to hire them-
selves as porters to carry it home for me.
454. What is your opinion as to the possibility of obtaining bodies in a state fit for
dissection, in case they are prepared by an antiseptic process ? — That from the
length of the voyage, little benefit would result from that process.
4.55. Does any thing occur to vouasto the mode of obtaining a supply of bodies from
workhouses? — 1 have made inquiry at several, but more especially at the workhouse
of the parish of St. James, and find the number who died in it, between the 1st of
January and the 31st December 1827, was 171 persons, of which number the
parish buried 138, and the friends 33. The number of persons dying out of the
workhouse, but brought in to be buried by the parish, was 44. In the parish of
St. Clement Danes, the total number buried by the parish is go. In the parish of
St. Andrew Holborn and St. George the Martyr, the .total number buried by the
parish was C6, and claimed by the friends 24. I believe there can be no doubt that
there is an ample supply of dead bodies to be had in the manner suggested.
456. Is it your opinion, that any measure for altering the law should be permissive in
the first instance, or would you have it compulsory? — I believe a permissive law
would answer all the purposes desired.
4,57. Do you think it would be advantageous to pass a law against exhumation,
making the penalties more severe, if the other were merely permissive? — Exhuma-
tion would cease, if other modes were found of supplying the schools.
458. It is the general wish to abolish the practice of exhumation? — Most un-
doubtedly.
459. And to give no encouragement, directly or indirectly, to it? — No; if the public
were aware of the horrors resulting from exhumation, that would of itself remove the
prejudice, and induce the legislature to substitute a mode of accomplishing so im-
portant an object as we have in view, less repugnant to decency.
460. What is your opinion as to the number of bodies that on the average are re-
quired for each student entering a dissecting room ? — In my opinion, each student
of anatomy ought to have two bodies in the course of a season.
4l> 1 . How many seasons ought he to continue under study ? — I conceive the present
system of medical education defective in England, in the allotment of time to the
568. G different
50
MINUTES Or EVIDENCE TAKEN BEFORE
J.Somerville,M.v. different branches : a student is required to have served an apprenticeship of five
v— » ' years to a general practitioner, before he becomes qualified for examination as apo-
1 May thecary ; much too great a portion of this time is employed in pharmacy, while
general education is much neglected, and the time devoted to the study of anatomy
and the acquisition of professional knowledge is too short; the pupils have this fur-
ther disadvantage, of commencing their studies at a later period of life than in any
other country.
462. How many courses of dissection do you think a student, in the whole career of
his education, ought to go through? — I think four or five seasons, varying according
to aptitude and diligence in the student.
4(>3. How many bodies in the whole do you think each pupil ought to have dis-
sected, before he is permitted to practise? — If a student studies for four years, and
has had six bodies, he will have had ample opportunity for qualifying himself in
his profession.
464. Do you include in jhis number those bodies upon which he would have to
perform the leading operations in surgery? — Yes.
465. You would concur in the propriety of the directors of anatomical schools
beino- obliged to give decent funeral rites to the remains of the bodies which have
been subjected to their observations ? — Most decidedly.
466. You stated that a great crowd of people came into the dissecting room, in which
the body of a murderer was deposited; was it curiosity that brought them ?— Idle
curiosity, and a desire for seeing dead persons under those circumstances, prompted
many, no doubt, to inquire; but the injurious effect that it produced was, that the
great proportion of the persons hanged are of the lower orders of Irish, and they
have as great a veneration for persons executed as if they were innocent, and as great
anxiety to have them waked ; and consequently a most awful feeling against dis-
secting rooms.
467. You think this feeling peculiarly attaches to the Irish ? — To the Irish more
particularly.
468. Do you conceive that the circumstance of witnessing a dissection created
a prejudice against it? — I believe not.
469. You do not think that their minds were affected by what they saw of the dis-
secting room ? — I believe not ; I believe, if the public were more frequently allowed
to see dissecting rooms, the prejudice would diminish ; because in France the rooms .
are open to the public, and I never saw any inconvenience from it.
470. Does the objection to the bringing of the body of a murderer into the dis-
secting room apply also to bringing in the body of a suicide ? — Most distinctly,
since it is a violence done to the feelings of the innocent relatives.
471. You have studied for a long period in Scotland and Paris? — I have.
472. How long in Paris? — In Paris twelve months.
473. What is the method by which the dissecting schools at Paris are supplied with
subjects ? — They are supplied from the hospitals and institutions for maintaining
paupers.
474. All the public hospitals and all the institutions resembling our workhouses,
such as the Salpetriere and Bicetre, give up the dead bodies of those who are not.
claimed within twenty-four hours to the dissecting schools ? — They do ; I believe the
French have no very great objection to dissecting rooms, and there is very little
inquiry made about the dead.
475. Do you know, when parties die, whether the relatives are informed of their
death, or whether a list of the deaths is suspended in the hospital for the infor-
mation of relatives ? — They do not give themselves any trouble to find out relatives.
476. Then if, after the expiration of the twenty-four hours, the relative applies,
what is the answer given to him ? — That the bodies are interred.
477. Is an ample supply for the use of the dissecting rooms thus obtained ? — There
has not been, so far as I know, any difficulty till within the last few months, when
there has been, I understand, a little scarcity.
478. Do you know what is the total supply obtained in Paris ? — I am not aware
of the actual number.
479. Do you know whether the proportion of bodies given up for dissection is large
compared to the number who die in the hospital? — I know it is a very large pro-
portion.
480. Is the supply of the bodies from those different hospitals to the dissecting
schools under the superintendence and management of any public officer ? — I believe
the chef des travaux anatomiques.
481. How
SELECT COMMITTEE ON ANATOMY. 5i
48 1 . How many dissecting schools are there in Paris ? — Two great public schools ; J. Smamlk, m. tx.
L'Ecole de M6decine and La Pitie. ^"
482. In what manner are the bodies transported from the hospitals ? — I have seen 1 May
carts employed, even in the day time, to collect bodies. .1828.
483. When they arrive at the schools, under what limitations is the dissecting
conducted ? — There are superintendents appointed, who are answerable for an equal
distribution of the bodies, and these superintendents are under the control of tha
chef des travaux anatomiques.
484. When the bodies arrive at the school, who are the persons that distribute
;the bodies ?— There is a head, the chef des travaux.
48,5. Are there any assistants? — He has several aids under him.
486. Of whom do those aids principally consist ; are they all natives of France,
or are some of them natives of other countries? — I believe there is no distinction
made ; that it is by merit, that they are the most talented of the students, that the
office is open to all.
487. Are the bodies delivered to the use of the dissecting students at a certain
price in the dissecting schools? — They are, I believe, nearly at the same price at
•all times ; eight francs was the common price at the Ecole de Medecine.
488. Is there not a difference in price according to the condition of the body,
whether it has been opened or not ?— Yes.
489. What is the price of a body which has been opened? — I cannot say ; I never
had one which had been opened; those which have not been opened are always pre-
ferred ; entire bodies indeed are never wanting.
490. Is there any difference of price according to its having been injected or not?
— Yes, there is a difference.
491. What is the highest price in the dissecting schools ? — I never heard of more
than sixteen francs ; I have known sixteen francs given for a particular body.
492. On the average, what is the price? — From eight to ten francs.
493. Are the bodies, either before or after examination, buried ? — After examina-
tion, it is demanded that they shall be decently interred.
404. Are you aware whether the bodies of any criminals in France are given up
for dissection ? — Most assuredly, none. Those executed are, by the Code Napoleon,
ordered to be delivered to relatives, but to be privately buried ; if unclaimed, they
are like others in the same predicament.
495. You do not believe that any bodies whatever in Paris are obtained in any
other manner than from the hospitals? — I am certain there are not.
496. Do you understand that the practice of exhumation is a crime that is punish-
able by the French law ? — It is considered a very heinous offence, and unheard of
for anatomical purposes.
497. Do you know that it is punishable under the Article 360 of the penal code ?
— Yes, there is such a law.
[77? e Article was read as follows-]
" Sera puni d'un emprisonnement de trois mois a un an et de seize francs a deux
cents francs d'amende, quiconque se sera rendu coupable de violation de tombeaux 011
de sepultures, sans prejudice des peines contre les crimes ou les debts qui seraient
joints a. celui-ci."
498. There is scarcely any limitation to the number of bodies a pupil is allowed
to dissect, if he be industrious? — Certainly not.
499. A pupil who enters himself there for dissection, dissects, if he pleases, with-
out any immediate interference on the part of the aids, or of the general superinten-
dent of the establishment? — Certainly.
• 500. Is there any thing further you wish to state as to the mode of obtaining a supply
of bodies at Paris, or the manner in which the pupils conduct their operations ? —
I believe that the reason why in France there is no prejudice against dissection is,
• that relatives or friends seldom have their feelings injured by any person being
taken forcibly from them ; and I firmly believe that if a supply could be obtained
by the same means in this country, the prejudices would rapidly subside. But, inde-
pendently of the other sources, the workhouses and prisons, there are various
other institutions which might furnish bodies, and which come under exactly the
same rules.
501. Do you think the English schools of Anatomy are subject to greater impedi-
ments than any with which you are acquainted or that have heard of, in foreign coun-
tries?— Most decidedly.
.568. G 2 502. You
52 MINUTES OF EVIDENCE TAKEN BEFORE
J. SomerviUe, u. n. 50:2. You have stated that you have heard or known that lately there has been some
— difficulty in Paris in procuring subjects for dissection ; to what do you conceive that
i May difficulty is owing? — The priests in France have always beheld with great jealousy
l8-8- the progress made by medical students; the priests are rather anxious to check the
study of medicine, or to lower it.
503. In what way did they interfere? — Formerly they did not make it a religious
question at all ; but as they had determined to put down the school of medicine.they
gave themselves a great deal of trouble in finding out the relatives and friends, and
saying mass very cheap.
504. Did they endeavour to give the relatives notice where the deaths took place?
— Yes, they found out the relatives, and caused them to claim the bodies.
505. Does not dissection by the English pupils in Paris generally take place under
the superintendence of English surgeons? — It formerly did so, but a gentleman who
is attending can best give information why that was discontinued.
506. Can you state any other sources from which a supply might be derived? — In
the Grampus hospital-ship there arc a hundred foreign seamen who die, I understand,
without any friends; this is only one of the many sources which will come to the know-
ledge of the Committee when they 'come to inquire; there are also many charitable
institutions and penitentiaries about town, and a great many other places where
bodies might be had.
James Richard Bennett, Esq. called in ; and Examined.
J. R. Bennett, Esq. 507. YOU are lecturer on Anatomy and part-proprietor of the school in Little
Dean-street, Soho ? — I am.
508. The Committee understand that you have studied in Dublin, and that after-
wards you had under your care for a long period in Paris, a considerable number of
English students, resorting thither for the purpose of obtaining a knowledge of
Anatomy? — Yes, I had.
509. State, as far as you are able, the sources from which the dead bodies are ob-
tained in Paris for dissection ? — It may not be unnecessary to premise, that prior to
the revolution in France the different hospitals in Paris were supported, as in London,
by voluntary contributions, and private and distinct funds, each having its separate
government. At the period of the Revolution all were connected together, and their
several funds being consolidated, and further revenues being provided by the go-
vernment, the management of all the hospitals in Paris was entrusted to a body
entitled the " Administration des Hopitaux," which is now composed of the leading
noblemen and other distinguished persons in Paris. The Administration des Hopi-
taux have always felt it their duty, for humanity's sake, to promote the cultivation of
medical science, and with that view to give up for anatomical purposes the unclaimed
bodies of those who die in hospitals. They thus carry into effect the law passed by
the legislative assembly, whereby it was enacted that the bodies of all those persons
who died in hospitals, which should be unclaimed within twenty-four hours after death,
should be delivered up for the purposes of science. Exhumation was thereby ren-
dered unnecessary, and severe laws were directed against the practice, which at
present is never resorted to in Paris. I believe it is calculated that about one-third
of those who die at Paris, die in hospitals, which are consequently very numerous,
and it is supposed that about one-fourth of the number who die in hospitals are not
claimed by their friends; at least, in 1822, when I went to Paris, that was the case;
but before I left Paris the subjects became scarce, in consequence of the interference
of the priests.
5 10. Can you enumerate the different hospitals in Paris, from which the supply is
derived? — The Hotel Dieu, la Charite, St. Louis, Necker, Enfans Malades, la
Pitie, and Beaujon, are the principal hospitals, besides the two great houses of
refuge, viz. the Hospices Salpetriere and Bicetre.
511. What is the mode in which the bodies of those who die, are transferred to the
dissecting rooms ? — They are sewed up in a clean cloth, and being placed in a
covered cart, are in that manner brought to one or the other of the great dissecting
establishments ; there are but two dissecting establishments in Paris tolerated or
permitted by the police, the Ecole dc Medecine, and the Amphitheatre, adjoining
the Hopital de la Pitie.
51 2. Is there no dissecting room, attached to any of those hospitals in particular, at
which dissection takes place? — It is forbidden ; the physicians or surgeons have a
right by law to open, for the purpose of inquiring into the nature of the disease,
the
SELECT COMMITTEE ON ANATOMY. 53
the bodies of those persons who die under their care in the hospitals, whether those Mr.
bodies be claimed or not : and the examination is made in the dead-room of the "'■ ^ Bc:">ett-
hospital • but the process of dissecting by pupils, is forbidden in the hospitals, though "
carried on to a slight degree privately. \&i8
513. Is the manner in which the bodies are treated after death and conveyed to
the different dissecting schools, conducted with perfect decency? — Perfectly so;
a person dying is attended by the pastor or priest ; after death, certain religious
ceremonies are performed by the priest connected with the hospital, and after that
the body remains until the expiration of twenty-four hours in the hospital.
5 r.4. In any room ? — There is a dead-room into which they are removed from the
chapel or altar ; at the expiration of twenty-four hours, if the friends do not claim
the body, it is then enveloped in clothing, and conveyed in a covered cart to one or
other of the great dissecting establishments.
515. At what hour? — The rule is, that the covered cart only pass at night, but
occasionally the bodies were brought during the day time.
5 1 6. Do you know what is the number of pupils in Anatomy, of all nations, attend-
ing the dissecting schools at Paris? — I cannot state precisely; but I should suppose
that at the period when I first went to Paris, there were from hve to six hundred
pupils attending the anatomical schools ; they have increased of late very much,
particularly by the influx of English students.
517. How many English were under your care when you first went to Paris? —
During the first year, 182:2-3, 1 taught Anatomy in Paris, I had only eighteen
English pupils; during the second, I had forty-two pupils altogether; in the middle
of the third year, I was obliged by the French authorities to discontinue.
518. To which of the two schools were you attached? — The amphitheatre, ad-
joining the Hopital de la Pitie.
519. In what capacity were you in that school? — I had no office nor authority
from the French government ; I merely taught there under sufferance, every person
having a right to dissect there ; but there were certain parts of the establishment
which at that period were hired out for private dissection, and those rooms were
held by the English students, to whom I lectured on Anatomy.
520. Is an ample supply of bodies obtained from those sources for the use of the
pupils dissecting? — Very ample indeed ; more than sufficient.
521. At what price are the bodies charged to the pupils ? — If a body was opened
and examined in the hospital, the charge was only three francs ; if the body was not
opened, it was five francs ; and if the body was injected, it was twelve francs ;
I perceive by the document before me that these charges varied a little at different
times.
522. In fact you were rather tolerated at the dissecting establishments than to be
considered as forming an officer or part of the establishment? — Just so.
523. Are these — \_A paper being shewn to the Witness] — nearly the regulations on Appendix
which the dissection goes on at the amphitheatre? — Yes, they are; I have read N°XIII.
them, and with one or two very slight exceptions, they are the regulations which
existed during the period I taught there.
52.4. You have stated that there has been some difficulty in Paris in procuring
bodies ; may not that difficulty be accounted for by the increase of pupils and the
exportation of bodies? — The increase of pupils may to a slight degree; with regard
to exportation, the number of bodies which has been brought from Paris, has been,
I understand, very limited; and I believe the impediments are such as to do away
altogether with the possibility of obtaining any considerable supply ; the exporta-
tion of bodies therefore could not have rendered them scarce in Paris.
525. Did you practise in Paris ? — I did not practice, having confined myself to
teaching Anatomy.
526. Are you at all aware whether the feelings of the upper classes of society in
France are more opposed than in this country, or as much opposed to the practice of
subjecting the bodies of their friends to examination ? — There is much less dislike,
I believe, to dissection in that country than in this, amongst all classes of society.
527. Did you not yourself latterly meet with some difficulties in superintending the
English students, of whom you had the care?— I experienced much difficulty from
those individuals who had the right of teaching at the amphitheatre de la Pitie, they
conceiving, I presume, that I interfered with their interests ; I consequently applied
to Sir Charles Stuart, then British Ambassador at the French court, and prayed his
interference with the French government for their permission of an authorized
English school in Paris; Sir Charles Stuart did not feel himself at liberty to make the
568. G 3 request
iBilS.
54 MINUTES OF EVIDENCE TAKEN BEFORE
Mr. request without the sanction of the English government ; 1 therefore came home
J. R. Bennett. and addressed Mr. Canning, then Secretary for Foreign Affairs, and was led to
" •** ' expect his concurrence ; but on the subject being made known to the College of
ftIay Surgeons in London, they waited on Mr. Canning and dissuaded him from granting
my request; sometime after my return to Paris, the French authorities obliged me
to desist from teaching.
52S. Was the jealousy in Paris occasioned by the numher of subjects dissected by
your class being so large as to occasion some little difficulty in the remainder of the
students obtaining the number they wanted for dissection? — It was the ostensible
objection.
529. The French students behaved with some little degree of violence on the
occasion, did they not ? — Yes.
530. That was an inconvenience to the danger of which the English, resorting to
the French school for dissection, must always be more or less liable? — Decidedly so.
531. Are you aware of the fact that no bodies of criminals are given up for dis»
section in France? — The bodies of criminals are not given up for dissection.
532. Do you think that tends to the existence of a feeling favourable to dissec-
tion in France?— I should suppose so.
533. There is no occasion for the bodies of criminals being given up, the supply
being ample ? — Yes, inasmuch as those bodies which are found in the river, and
placed in the Morgue, for recognition by friends, are not given up to dissection, in
consequence of the supply being fully adequate from the hospitals.
534. If a law were passed in France to give up the bodies of criminals, do you
not think that it would be prejudicial to the study of Anatomy, and would in-
dispose the people to afford the present facilities to that study ? — It migh!, in time,
decidedly, judging from the feeling which exists in this country.
535. At the time of your being at Paris, what was the total number of English
medical and surgical students there? — I had no means of positively ascertaining
the number, but they might have amounted to about thirty or forty in 1822, when
J first visited Paris ; the number in each subsequent year rapidly increased.
536. The question does not refer to those attending your class, but the total
number? — I think there were not above thirty or forty in 1822.
537. Do you include Scotch and Irish ? — Yes.
538. Was there any considerable number from Ireland? — No, very few from
Ireland; the greatest number from Scotland.
539. In what manner is the supply of bodies obtained in Dublin for the anatomical
schools ? — There are two sources from which they obtain a supply in Dublin, one
.source is the house of industry, which is the great poor-house of Dublin, con-
taining, with the several hospitals attached to it, upwards of 2,000 patients, all
being supported by government. When I was studying in Dublin, the chief
governors of that institution were medical men, and they gave up readily all the
unclaimed bodies of those who died in the establishment, and these hodies were
sent to the College of Surgeons, in consequence of one of the surgeons of the house
of industry being the lecturer on Anatomy there. The other source from which the
supply was obtained, was a large burial ground called Bully's Acre, where the
paupers are buried in consequence of no fees being exacted there ; other burial
grounds were occasionally resorted to.
540. This was the place to which the exhumators principally had recourse ? — Yes.
541. Did any disclosures ever take take place?— They took so little precaution in
Dublin, in my time, in raising the bodies at Bully's Acre, that they never took the
trouble of filling the graves after they extracted the bodies. It was universally known
in Dublin, that all the bodies, buried in that particular burial ground, were taken up
a few hours after they were interred.
542. From those various sources an ample supply was obtained for the anatomical
school in Dublin ? — Yes, an ample supply.
543. Have you at all considered the supply which might be derived from work-
houses in this country? — I am not sufficiently well acquainted with workhouses in
this country to form an opinion.
544. Will you have the goodness to state why you have been induced to give up
your own private school ? — The expenses of it are so very considerable, in conse-
quence of the charge for dead bodies, and it has occurred to me, as a beginner, that
the resurrection men have exacted more from me than has been usually paid
by others. I have paid fourteen guineas for a subject, which I had afterwards to
give
SELECT COMMITTEE ON ANATOMY. 55
give to the pupils for eight guineas, that being the usual sum paid by students for
a dead bod}' in London.
545. Is not this applicable to every private dissecting establishment in London? —
I believe so. 1 May
546. The owners of private establishments not being supported, like the teachers l82
at the hospital-schools, by the fees derivable from large classes of pupils, and the
advantage connected with the use of the public theatre and dissecting room, are less
able to pay the great price necessary for obtaining a supply of subjects? — I believe so.
547. Have you any doubt that the penal law in existence with regard to murderers,
tends to aggravate the feelings of the public against dissection ? — I have not.
548. Does it throw discredit over it, so as to prevent a voluntary appropriation of
bodies? — Yes, decidedly so.
549. Do you not think that it would be better the public feeling should concur
with regulations which might be proposed, than that there should be any positive
law forcing those feelings, so as to oblige a delivery of any class of bodies? —
Certainly.
550. You think that the delay which would take place before that feeling was re-
moved to the extent required, would not be very detrimental to the interests of
science? — I think not.
551. That the delay would not oblige the schools to be shut up for any period of
time? — I think not.
552. Does any thing else occur to you on this subject? — No, except with regard
to the importation of subjects ; every thing exported from Paris must undergo in-
spection by the custom-house officers of that city, and subsequently it is liable to
an examination again at Calais. These examinations therefore render exportation
almost impossible ; I also know, as a fact, that on an application being made to one
of the individuals high in the custom-house department at Paris, to accede to the
exportation of dead bodies, he expressed the highest indignation at the idea of
sending the bodies of Frenchmen for dissection to England.
553. Do you imagine it is possible to attempt to carry on a regular supply of dead
bodies from France to this country, without its acquiring publicity or coming to the
knowledge of the police in Paris? — It is almost impossible to bring over any con-
siderable number of bodies from Paris, without the fact being generally known.
5,54. Should you not anticipate that the medical schools in Paris, which derive so
much advantage from the resort thither of so many students in medicine and sur-
gery, would be opposed to the exportation of subjects 1 — I believe they would oppose
the exportation, and particularly at present; for dead bodies are not procured with
Such facility at present as formerly in the Paris school, in consequence, as I before
observed, of the priests interfering, and prevailing on the friends of the persons to
bury them more frequently now than formerly.
[The folloioing letter was read.] ^ ^ ^
*' Dear Sir : — I am sorry it lias been out of my power to communicate to you sooner
the information you requested me to obtain for you, respecting the number of English
medical students who come here annually to prosecute the different branches of their
profession, and in particular that of dissection. From the records kept at the School
of Medicine, it has been ascertained, that upwards of a hundred British medical stu-
dents take out inscription tickets; and from what I have been able to learn, from
various sources, an equal number do not take out inscription tickets, so that the average
number of such students in Paris may be estimated at two hundred, the greater number
of them being here for the express purpose of obtaining dissection, and besides, of
practically acquiring operative surgery, the number of dead bodies afforded by the
hospitals being such as not only to enable them to perform themselves the various sur-
gical operations, but to see them performed by professors who have at their disposal
almost an unlimited number of bodies. 1 believe 1 have nothing further to add to
what I had the honour of stating to you when in London, as to the mode of supplying
bodies for the above purposes, adopted by die French admiaistraiion of hospitals. In
one word, all unclaimed bodies may be employed for the purposes of dissection, and
are regularly brought from the different hospitals of the metropolis early in the morning
in covered waggons, and deposited in the two great schools of practical Anatomy, La
Pitie and the Ecole de Medecine. The former is destined for public dissections, and
students of every country are admitted to it gratis, having only to pay a trifling sum
for each body they dissect; this sum is fixed by the administration at tbe rate of from
two shillings to about seven shillings, according as the body has been opened, is -un-
opened, or injected. The latter is set apart for a particular class of students, and for the
preparation of anatomical or other dissections for the School of Medicine, the whole
being under the direction of a physician, named Chef des Travaux Anatomiques, who
has from three to four assistants, or aides d'anatomie, who direct the studies of the
368. G 4 students
50 MINUTES OF EVIDENCE TAKEN BEFORE
]yjr> students of this school. In the sehool of La Pitie, on the contrary, tire student is left to
J. Ii. Burnett. his own resources, the operator there having nothing more to dp with the student than to
see that he is supplied with bodies, and that due attention is paid to order, cleanliness, 8tc.
! Mav The students of this sehool, however, may receive practical instructions from intelli-
1828. gent young men, generally house surgeons, by paying them a moderate sum, which
includes also the price of subjects. Should you require any further information on this
subject, 1 shall be happy to do my utmost to obtain it for you.
" Believe me to remain, dear Sir, with esteem and respect,
" Your very obedient servant,
" No. 5, Hue d'Assas. " R. Carswell, M. D."
" To Henry Waiburton, Esq. M. P.
555. Should you concur in the statements of Dr. Carswell, contained in that
letter? — 1 would.
556. In the studies of the English students which you superintended in Paris, did
it form a part of the course, that they should perform on the dead body the principal
surgical operations which they may be required to perform on the living? — They all
availed themselves of the extreme cheapness of subjects to perform the operations.
557. Did you, as superintending their studies, aid in teaching them to perform
those operations? — Yes, I did.
558. You consider that an essential part of surgical instruction? — Yes, I do.
55Q. Do you consider the French students in general better qualified to enter on
their "practice than the English ? — They are certainly in respect of operations ; and
the Dublin students are also much better qualified than the English or Scotch.
560. Have you had occasion to see what is the practice in the provincial towns in
France? — No, I have not; I am acquainted with the general outline of the system
of education, but I have no knowledge of the state of the profession in the pro-
vincial towns.
561. Having had the opportunity of observing the students in Dublin, Paris, and
London, when they have finished their courses of study, is it your opinion tint
their competence and consequent utility, on quitting the two former schools, are
greater than on quitting the latter, owing to the full advantages of dissection which
are to be had at the two former? — Certainly they are greater in those schools
where the opportunities of cultivating Anatomy are most abundant.
562. Would not that in a very short time give a decided preference to the practice
of surgery in France over that in England, if some remedy be not provided? — It
certainly would ; in England the study of Anatomy almost exclusively refers to the
practice of medicine or surgery, the attention being almost solely directed to
certain portions of the body where particular operations are performed. Surgery, iii
the hands of those high in their profession in England, is perfectly on the same level
with surgery in France ; but when we come to consider Anatomy as a science, and
Medicine as a science, it will be admitted that the continental medical men have
gone far beyond the English in the cultivation of these sciences; in the practice they
have not, for they reject the empyricism which we have recourse to, when science
fails us.
563. Is it not of great importance for the discovery of new organs and new functions
in the human body, that those persons who have already completed their studies in
Anatomy should have an ample supply of bodies for examination? — Yes, it is.
564. From what you know of the supply of bodies in this country, can they be
easily obtained here ? — No, they cannot.
565. Do you wish to state anything further to the Committee on the subject of the
various difficulties and inconveniences to which the profession is here subjected in
endeavouring to obtain a supply of bodies ? — I have been only two years teaching
Anatomy in London, and am not so well acquainted With the details as the gentle-
men who have preceded me.
Veneris^ 2" die Maij, 1828.
David Barry, m. d. called in ; and Examined.
Davhl Bany, m. r>. 566. Y"OU are a physician, practising in London? — I am.
v 567- You have resided some time in France, and have taken your degree of doctor
2 May in physic there? — I resided more than four years there, and am a doctor of the faculty
1828. 0j- medicine 0f paris<
568. Can
SELECT COMMITTEE ON ANATOMY. 57
568. Can you state what is the number of pupils following dissection in the schools David Barry, m. d.
of Paris ? — In the first three months of the scholastic year of 1 827, there were nearly * — — -^ -^
1,500 inscriptions taken by the pupils of all classes ; and besides those 1,500, there 2 May
is always a considerable number who do not take inscriptions, who have finished 1828.
their studies, but defer taking the degree of doctor for particular reasons, and who
dissect ; there are also English students who do not take inscriptions, but who
dissect.
569. Will you more particularly describe what an inscription is ? — A pupil that'
enters in the university of France with the intention to become a medical man, either
as a doctor or an officier de sante, (we have nothing parallel to the latter in this
country,) has his name inscribed before the 15th of October, with his birth-place,
his age, his certificate of baptism ; and he receives from the Bureau of the Faculty
a ticket, showing that he has inscribed himself, and paid a certain sum of money.
October begins the first quarter of the scholastic year ; the second quarter begins in
January.
570. Can you form any estimate or guess as to the number of those who do not
take inscription-tickets ? — I can ; I have a letter from Paris from a friend of mine,
dated 1 7th of April, in which he says, that with regard to the English, there are 200
English students at present in Paris, 100 of which take inscriptions, and the others
do not ; they merely dissect.
571. In that respect your letter agrees with the letter of Doctor Carswell? — So
it appears ; here is the Almanac de Medecine for 1827, and this gives the number
of inscriptions taken in each three months for the year, and also the number of
those that are received as officiers de sante ; the number that have passed their
theses, or been received as doctors, is also given ; I believe these last amount to
215 : now I am inclined to think, from what I know of the school, that the greater
portion of the doctors did not take inscriptions during that year, because passing
the doctorship deprives them of the power of becoming house surgeons, or pro-
secteurs, or pupils to hospitals (called eleves internes), or aides d'anatomie ; there-
fore they defer the taking the doctorship until they are prepared to settle, because
it deprives them of those advantages.
572. Will you describe more particularly what are the duties of those different de-
grees which you speak of; what is the duty of ofiicier de sante ? — The ofiicier de sant6
is obliged to take only three years inscriptions ; he is obliged to attend the courses,
only during those three years, in anatomy, physiology, natural history, therapeutics,
surgery, and medicine ; he has three public examinations to undergo, and after he
has passed those successfully, he is limited to a particular department, out of which
he cannot settle, and he can perform no surgical operation, except under the super-
intendence of a doctor of surgery or a doctor of medicine.
573. Is the ofiicier de sante the lowest description of medical degree that a person
is allowed to take ? — Yes.
574. What intermediate degrees are there between an officier de sante and
a doctor of medicine? — None; there is the doctor in medicine, the doctor in sur-
gery, and the officier de sante ; the education of a doctor of medicine and a doctor
of surgery is precisely the same, the difference only being in the fifth examination,
and in the nature of the thesis : the degree is taken either as doctor of surgery or
doctor of physic ; and if a doctor of physic wishes to become a doctor of surgery,
he has only to write another thesis upon a surgical subject, and vice versa.
575. The general education, then, of a doctor of physic and a doctor of surgery
is the same ? —Yes, precisely.
576. You have made use of a word that has not been defined ; what is the office
of prosecteur? — The prosecteur superintends, under the chef des travaux anato-
miques.
577. Is he the same officer that Mr. Bennett has described as the aide d'anatomie ?
— No, he is not ; he is superior to the aides d'anatomie.
578. How many prosecteurs are attached to each of the two principal dissecting
schools at Paris ? — There are three prosecteurs and three aides d'anatomie at the
Ecole Pratique.
579. How is it at La Pitie? — I know of but one prosecteur at La Pitie.
580. Will you describe particularly what is the difference in the systems at the two
establishments of La Pitie and the Ecole Pratique? — At the Ecole Pratique only
such pupils are allowed to dissect as have by a public examination distinguished
themselves, and rendered themselves worthy of becoming members of the Ecole
568. H Pratique;
58 MINUTES OF EVIDENCE TAKEN BEFORE
David Barry, m. d. Pratique ; and they have the advantage of having their subjects, whether opened or
i ^ ' s not, at three francs, fifty sous.
i May 58i • All who enter? — Yes, all who are members of the Ecole Pratique ; and they
1828. have also the first claim to subjects before all other people.
582. Are all persons, to whatsoever nation they belong, if they have so distin-
guished themselves, admitted to dissect at the Ecole Pratique ? — 1 believe they are.
583. Will you describe the system at La Pitie? — At La Pitie there are several large
halls or rooms, fitted up with tables on each side, some of them leaded, and some of
them boarded, with tubes conveying water, and conveniences for keeping the place
clean, and it is only necessary to be introduced there as a person attached to the
study of medicine ; I do not know that it is even necessary to show an inscription
at the Faculty ; the person so applying inscribes his name upon a list, saying he
wants a subject, and when his turn comes he gets a subject.
584. Then it is to La Piti6 that the greater number of English students, resorting
to Paris for the purpose of dissection, have recourse ? — I believe it is ; there is, how-
ever, an exception to that, as Monsieur Breschet, the chef at the Ecole Pratique,
takes-in English pupils under his own protection, and gives them from his authority
permission to dissect.
585. Then students of whatever nation are also admitted to La Pitie to dissect?
— Yes.
586. Will you describe what is the difference in the system of medical and surgical
education pursued in France and in England ? — There is but one school of medicine
in Paris, and to that school there are attached twenty-four senior professors, and
twenty-four junior professors ; the time spent in following the courses of these pro-
fessors, cannot be less than three years for the officier de sante, nor less than four
years for a doctor of medicine or surgery; those years must be consecutive, and the
study certified by the different professors ; the examinations are all held in public ;
to obtain the degree of doctor, either in medicine or surgery, six public examinations
must be undergone, with an interval of at least three months between each two ;
the result of the opinion or judgment of the professors examining the candidate, is
posted up in the public hall, and upon the nature of this judgment, in a great measure
depends the future character and success in life of the candidate ; in England, I
believe, I need not explain it.
587. Is it not considered indispensable in France, that the candidate for a diploma,
should have pursued a course of practical Anatomy? — Most certainly ; in France, he
must not only pursue a course of practical Anatomy, but he must absolutely and
actually dissect ; independent of those already mentioned examinations, the candi-
date for a doctorship, must be a bachelor of letters and of sciences, and deposit
his diplomas at the bureau of the Faculty, before he can take his inscription, before
he can begin his four years of medical study.
588. Is it considered indispensable in a course of medical and surgical education in
France, that the student should perform upon the dead body the principal operations
required to be performed upon the living? — Most certainly.
589. At the time of taking his degree, is he required to give evidence of his skill,
by performing on the dead body, before the judges, any of those operations ? — At the
fifth examination, the candidate is obliged to apply bandages, and go through the
minor operations, upon a statue or figure, not upon the soft subject. Another
circumstance attached to an officier de sante is, that he cannot give his opinion before
the tribunals ; his opinion cannot be acted upon with regard to death by poison,
wounds, accidents, &c.
590. Is there not attached to La Pitie, a gentleman of the name of Monsieur
Lisfranc, who is celebrated for teaching the mode of performing upon a dead body
the principal surgical operations ? — Yes, there is.
591. Are not his demonstrations frequented by a very large number of English
students who resort to Paris ? — Particularly so, almost by every one.
592. Do you know of any similar course given in this country? — I know of
none ; I have studied in Dublin and in this country, I know of none.
593. Do you not consider that course of surgical instruction of the highest im-
portance ? — I certainly do.
594. Should you not think it unsafe to commit yourself, for the performance of a
difficult operation, to a surgeon who had never performed upon a dead body, an oper-
ation which he was required to perform upon the living? — I certainly should, unless
he had acquired the necessary dexterity by having operated upon the living body.
595. But
SELECT COMMITTEE ON ANATOMY. 59
595. But if he begins to perform upon the living body, before he has performed Darili fiarr„> M.
upon the dead body, he necessarily, until he acquires that experience, must perform ^— ^
those first operations in a very awkward and insufficient manner? — Most certainly, 2 May
and independently of Monsieur Lisfranc's demonstrations, each pupil may have as 1828.
many subjects as he pleases, and operate upon them himself, or in company with
other pupils: they instruct and help each other at La Pitie ; I say this in relation to
statements made by some witnesses examined yesterday as to the English schools,
some stating two subjects, and some that three were enough. I conceive that there
is no eminent surgeon in Paris who has not, in the course of his education, dissected
and operated upon more than thirty subjects.
596. What should you yourself consider, with every view to economy in the use of
subjects, sufficient for an adequate course of surgical instruction ? — I should think
four subjects in a season would be the very least, for two seasons at least.
597. Therefore you would allot to each student, upon the whole, eight subjects ? —
Yes, certainly.
598. Do you confirm the evidence that has been given by the witnesses yesterday,
during whose examinations you were present, as to the price of subjects at La Pitie ?
—Yes, certainly, the price is correct.
599. Will you state what becomes of the bodies of criminals executed in France,
are they given up for dissection ? — I know they have been used for dissecting or ex-
perimental purposes at the Ecole de Medecine ; I am not awure that the code
mentions they shall be given up for dissection.
600. Under the article fourteen in the Code Penal, might they not be given up,
unless they are reclaimed by the families of the parties ; " the bodies of those who
have been executed shall be delivered to their families if they reclaim them, the
families engaging to pay the expenses of the burial, without making any public dis-
play?"— Certainly, it appears so.
601. The school has no claim upon them? — I believe not.
602. Do you know whether the chef des travaux anatomiques distributes the
bodies of those executed, which are not reclaimed by the families ? — I never knew an
instance of it ; but they consider it important to examine those bodies, because it is
rare to see the viscera of a man who dies in full health, as some of those do.
603. The bodies that are distributed to the dissecting schools being sold at a
certain price to the pupils who dissect at Paris, what is done with the proceeds arising
from that sale ? — The proceeds are employed by the administration of the hospitals
to defray the expense of carriage and burial of the remains.
604. Will you describe more particularly the manner of obtaining and afterwards
distributing the bodies to the dissecting schools at Paris? — The only connection that
the student at the hospital has with bodies, is while the man is a patient in the
ward, and is in his last moments, and again when he sees him on the table of the
clinical lecturer. What becomes of the body in the interval, between the dying in
the ward and the lecture upon his viscera or appearances after death, I am not per-
sonally acquainted with ; but I believe they have a chapel attached to each hospkal,
in which they place the body that mass may be said over it. If the friends claim
the body after it is opened, it is given up, decently sewed up in canvas. The
wounds that have been made to examine the viscera are sewed up, and the body is
delivered in canvas, or in a shell brought by the friends.
605. Claimed within what time ? — Twenty-four hours, I believe. The cart that
conveys those bodies sets out very early in the morning from the different hospitals ;
for instance, the bodies that are furnished to the Ecole Pratique are sent from the
hospitals of Bicetre, Beaujon, St. Louis, St. Antoine, the hospitals of Necker and
the Enfans Malades ; they are sent in a covered cart, so constructed as not to
attract public notice. The bodies having arrived, suppose at La Piti6, they are
taken out from the sacks in which they were brought, and deposited in a particular
building devoted to that purpose ; the prosecteur then comes with his list of those
that have inscribed themselves for subjects, and distributes them accordingly ; the
pupils, according to their merit, have the right of choice first; if there is not room
in the Ecole Pratique, the student then claims his right of priority. At La Pitie"
the servants of the dissecting-room collect the remains, sew them up again in the
same coarse cloth, and convey them to the nearest place of interment.
606. Are the funeral rites performed over the remains before they go to the dis-
secting-rooms, or after the remains are finally taken away ? — I believe the church has
nothing to do with them after the bodies are taken away from the hospital.
607. Do you think, if there was a penal law introduced into France that gave up
H 2 the
Co MINUTES OF EVIDENCE TAKEN BEFORE
David Barry, m. r>. the bodies of murderers to the dissecting establishments, it would tend to diminish or
>- ^ > promote the present facilities of obtaining bodies in that country? — I do not think
2 May it would make any difference whatever, and I think myself that the distinction that
1828. tne English law establishes between a dead murderer and a dead pauper, is rather
salutary to general morality, and will not in the least interfere with the furnishing
of subjects.
608. You do not think that the stigma which attaches to the dissection of murderers,
tends to aggravate the general dislike to the practice of dissection?— No.
609. You have stated that it was of importance to have some subjects to examine
that died in a state of health ? — Yes. .
610. How are they to be obtained, except in the way they are obtained here? —
I know of no other way. It is of so much importance, that Magendie, the celebrated
physiologist of France, quotes the state of the viscera of subjects that had been
guillotined in his book.
611. But it not being compulsory by law to deliver up people executed in France,
though in France the surgeons possess advantages in every other respect, in this
respect, namely, the examination of bodies dying in health, they have less advantages
than are to be found in England ? — Yes, 1 would say that there are less capital
punishments there.
612. And for both reasons there is less advantage in France than here, as far as
the examination of bodies dying in health are concerned? — Yes.
(5 1 3. Are you aware of the number of bodies in a given period given up for dis-
section, who have been executed in this country? — I have not the slightest idea.
614. What is the result of your experience as to the practice in the Portuguese
schools? — Medical science, as far as regards Anatomy, is at a low ebb in Portugal ;
and for whatever dissection is practised there, the subjects are had from the hospitals
called Misericordia, equivalent to the Hospital de la Piti£, or charity in France.
615. Are there any professed schools of Surgery and Anatomy at Lisbon? —
I refer to Lisbon, Coimbra, and Oporto ; there is an university at Coimbra where
Anatomy is taught.
616. Do you remember the number of pupils at any of those schools ? — Not
exactly; the number of dissecting pupils was always very small, never amounting to
twenty.
617. Was an ample supply of bodies obtained for the wants of those pupils? —
Most ample ; there is not the slightest objection to the disposition of bodies ; the
supply was particularly ample of children, from the number of children put into
the roda, or foundling cradles ; they die in great numbers, and may be had for
asking for.
618. You do not think in Portugal the practice of dissection is opposed by any
state of public feeling ? — Not at all, yet it is conducted with decency and secrecy,
so as not to outrage the feelings of individuals.
619. Does anything further occur to you as to the schools of Portugal? — No,
nothing further.
620. Does the practice of exhumation prevail there? — I believe it was never
heard of.
621. Are the bodies of criminals given up for dissection ? — I believe not; the
bodies of criminals are given up to the brotherhood of the Misericordia, who inter
them with quick lime at their own expense.
■ 622. Have you had any particular means of ascertaining, in England, whether
the dislike attaching generally to dissection is aggravated by the bodies of murderers
being given up for dissection ? — I have no particular data to go upon, further than
my own judgment in the affair ; I think that the prejudices against dissection are very
few, if any, in England, and that they are not increased by the bodies of murderers
being given up. Dissection abstractedly considered, nobody feels any abhorrence
to ; it is only as connected with their own relatives, or their own future dissection,
that thev feel any thing upon the subject.
623. It is to the practice of exhumation you attribute in a great measure the pre-
vailing dislike? — Most certainly.
624. Do you conceive that if the bodies of those who died in hospitals and
workhouses and were unclaimed by their relatives, were given up for dissection, that
the public would have much objection to such a practice? — I conceive, that if
unclaimed bodies were permitted by law (not forced) to be given up to dissection,
the English public would support the measure most heartily.
625. Having
SELECT COMMITTEE ON ANATOMY. 61.
6i25. Having heard the evidence given on a previous day relating to the difficulties Duvid Barry, m.d.
to which the surgeons in England are subjected, and with regard to the remedies * '
suggested for obtaining a better supply of subjects, do you concur in the opinions 2 May
that it would be expedient to obtain a supply in future of the unclaimed bodies l8'28-
from hospitals and workhouses ? — I conceive that to be the very best mode of sup-
plying subjects.
626. Do you consider from what you have heard of the number of those who die
in the different hospitals and workhouses, that the supply so obtained would be
sufficient ? — I conceive quite enough.
627. In Portugal you say the dissection is conducted with great decency, do
you allude to any particular regulations on the subject ? — No, except the exclusion
of all those not particularly connected with medical studies.
628. Does the practice prevail in Portugal of burying the remains of those who
have been dissected ? — Always in consecrated ground.
629. Do you think if it were permitted to dissect the bodies unclaimed in hos-
pitals and workhouses, and if a regulation of burying the remains with decent
funeral rites were to be enforced, that the repugnance to dissection would thereby be
diminished ? — If properly qualified persons receiving subjects were bound to give
christian burial to the remains, it would do away with all prejudice.
James Richard Bennett, Esq. again called in ; and Examined.
630. IS any person allowed to open a dissecting school at Paris, at any other
place than at one of the two leading dissecting establishments ? — No, they are not.
631. The facilities for dissection, given at those two leading establishments are so
great, that private dissecting rooms are quite unnecessary ? — Quite unnecessary.
632. Are there not certain pupils at the Hopital de la Pitie, who have certain
privileges ? — Yes.
633. Will you state who are the pupils that are allowed these privileges ? — At
Paris, there are attached to each hospital a certain number of pupils, who are deno-
minated Eieves Internes or house pupils ; those persons are annually elected to the
office at a public examination, and each holds the office a certain number of years.
Those individuals have the first choice of the subjects at La Pitie, and at a less cost
than the ordinary students.
634. Of whom does the other dissecting establishment, the Ecole Pratique, con-
sist ? — The Ecole Pratique, is the name generally applied to the dissecting establish-
ment under the immediate governance or control of the school of medicine, and only
such pupils are entitled to dissect there, as have entitled themselves to the privilege
by having distinguished themselves at an examination held for the purpose. A certain
number is admitted yearly, and the aggregate or the class of pupils that so distinguish
themselves, constitute the body called the Ecole Pratique ; but other individuals,
even foreigners, are occasionally admitted as a favour, to the dissecting rooms.
634.* What is the establishment for dissection at the Ecole Pratique? — There are
a number of dissecting" rooms, which are placed under the control or direction of the
superintendent, who is called the Chef des Travaux Anatomiques. and under him there
are young men appointed as his assistants, who are denominated Prosecteurs and
Aides d*Anatomie; those individuals teach and guide the students in their dissection.
635. Is this chef des travaux anatomiques, of whom you speak as attached to the
Ecole Pratique, the same individual who bears the same title, and has the care of
the general distribution of the bodies in Paris? — As I observed before, each of the
two dissecting establishments has a chef des travaux anatomiques for its superin-
tendence and management ; the allotment of the subjects from the several hospitals
to the dissecting establishments is made by an officer connected with the adminis-
tration des hopitaux, whose title I forget.
636. What is the establishment for dissection adjoining the Hopital de la Pitie? —
It consists of two or three large dissecting rooms and some smaller ones placed above
them. The great rooms are open to all medical students, who are only required to
pay for the subjects they dissect, without any further charge. The smaller rooms, in
my time, were hired out to those individuals who wished to dissect in private. There
is also a chef des travaux anatomiques, at the dissecting establishment adjoining the
Hopital de la Pitie, who superintends the dissections there ; and under him there
are two prosecteurs, who regulate the details of the establishment.
637. Is there any other explanatory matter that you would wish to state to the
Committee ? — I beg to observe, that attached to each hospital, and occasionally in one
568. H3 of
6a MINUTES OF EVIDENCE TAKEN BEFORE
of the public wards, there is an altar erected and a priest Is attached to each hos-
pital ; 1 have frequently seen the service of the dead performed by those priests
over dying patients.
638. Are the chefs des travaux anatomiques paid by the government? — At the
Hopital de la Pitie the chef des travaux anatomiques is paid by the administration
des hopitaux ; at the Ecole Pratique the chef des travaux anatomiques is paid by
the school of Medicine.
639. You have stated the mode of distributing dead bodies in Paris, which is
very much facilitated by the hospitals being under one administration ; in this
country, as the hospitals are not under one general administration, it is fit to ask
you, whether you have any thing to suggest as to the peculiar provisions that
would be necessary for the distribution of subjects? — I think the fact of all the
hospitals in Paris being under the government of a single administration, faci-
litates very much the supplying subjects for the purposes of dissection ; and in addi-
tion to that, the circumstance of the administration des hopitaux being composed of
the highest and most distinguished persons in Paris, those prejudices do not prevail
amongst them which are found to influence the governors of the hospitals in London,
some of whom occasionally belong to the middling classes of society ; but I could not
presume to suggest any remedy in the way of assimilating the government of the
London hospitals with that of the Paris hospitals, for the purpose of obtaining
the advantage alluded to.
640. The supply of dead bodies in Paris is derived not only from the hospitals,
but those great workhouses, called the Salpetriere and Bicelre? — Yes.
640.* Have you any thing to suggest as to the provisions necessary in this country,
where there is no general administration of hospitals, and where the workhouses are
not only more various, but under different governors? — I should presume their being
under different governors in this country, taking into consideration the rank of life
of those who have the government of them, that it materially operates against the
giving up the subjects for dissection.
641. You do not consider the difficulties here of such a nature, but that by pru-
dence and in the course of time they may be surmounted ? — I do not.
642. You think it would be better done by some sort of an establishment? — Yes.
643. What do you know as to the manner in which subjects are obtained for the
large towns in the provinces in France ? — I do not know from actual experience,
not having studied in any of those schools ; but I have understood, from a variety
of circumstances, that in the very large towns, such as Lyons and others, there are
very great facilities in getting bodies from the public hospitals : in some of those large
towns there are what are denominated secondary schools existing, and they are sup-
plied from the large hospitals.
644. Are they supplied abundantly ? — I believe, in Lyons, they are very much so.
Gustav Hbnly, m. d. called in ; and Examined.
Gustav Himly,M. d. 645. YOU have some experience as to the practice in the "hospitals and dissecting
schools in Germany ? — Yes.
646. What is the mode of obtaining dead bodies for the dissecting schools in those
universities in Germany with which you are acquainted ? — I am best acquainted
with Gottingen.
647. What is the mode of obtaining bodies there? — Every person dying in prison
or penitentiary is given up to Anatomy, that is not only in Gottingen, but they are
sent from the great penitentiaries in Hameln, a town eight German miles from
Gottingen, and from another at Moringen, which is two German miles from
Gottingen ; persons who cannot pay for their burial in town, are given up to
Anatomy ; the poor people who are supported at the public expense, are obliged
to be given up, and it is often the case that poor people give up their body and get
money for it; all persons executed are given up to Anatomy; public women are
also given up. Those who die in hospitals are not given up, they are only opened
in the hospitals.
648. How do the police determine who are public women ; have they licences ? —
No, not at Gottingen ; at Berlin it is so ; but if a woman is not married and has a
child, then she is given up to Anatomy ; or I think it is after having two children ;
but it depends upon whether there is a want of bodies from other sources ; for
instance, in summer, when they are not required, they arc not very often claimed.
649- Are the bodies of those who die in prisons and penitentiaries, given up for
dissection,
SELECT COMMITTEE ON ANATOMY. 63
dissection, whether the friends claim their bodies or not? — They never are given up Oustm Himly, m.d.
to Anatomy, if they are only imprisoned before trial ; but if it is for punishment, then ^ o _•
they are given up : if they are claimed, they are not given up, if the family pays a 2 May-
certain sum instead of the body to the funds of the anatomical school. i%rt.
■ 650. Is any supply obtained for the dissecting schools by the purchase of bodies
from the friends after death, or from persons themselves while yet alive ? — Not by the
funds of Anatomy; the physician might do it for himself, but not for the public
establishment.
65 1 . Are the bodies of those who die in the public hospitals given up for dissec-
tion ? — No, they are not ; they are opened in the hospital itself.
652. By opened, do you mean that they are completely dissected, or only exa-
mined ? — Only examined, and the disease they die of ascertained.
653. Do you know the number of pupils in Gottingen, or at Berlin r — I cannot tell
that exactly ; I should also state, that a person who dies by suicide, is given up to
dissection also ; but if any one claims them, they get them back by paying a sum of
money ; if it be a person of family, the professor would think that it would disgust
the students to dissect this body ; he therefore would not take it ; for instance, if
a student himself commits suicide, no other student would dissect him.
654. Do the Committee understand you, that the body of any person dying, under
those various circumstances you have enumerated, may be reclaimed by the friends
on their paying a sum of money ?— Yes.
655. Is that the law of that part of Germany, or is it the custom ? — I cannot tell.
656. At what price can a body be reclaimed by the friends? — I think it is twenty
dollars ; I do not know whether it is so high.
C57. Is the supply of subjects from those various sources ample for the wants of
the dissecting schools ? — Yes, every student may have as much as he wants; the first
course of dissection is only the body, as it is brought for the studying the muscles;
in another course the arteries are filled with coloured wax, and so it is dissected to
see the arteries and the nerves.
6,58. What are the different degrees, medical or surgical, that are taken at Got-
tingen ? — There is only one degree, doctor of medicine and surgery, both together.
659. There is no inferior degree? — No, there is none.
660. How many years is a candidate for a degree of doctor of medicine and sur-
gery required to have studied ? — At least three years, but now it is usual to study
four years at least.
661. Is he required to have dissected bodies before he can take that degree? —
Yes, he is.
662. Is he required to have performed on a dead body the principal surgical opera-
tions?— That is not required to take the degree, but afterwards to make the second
examination ; at Hanover it might be required to get a license to practise surgery.
663. You speak in your last answer of a second degree which is required before
a person is allowed to practise medicine or surgery ? —Yes.
664. How many years is that after he has taken his first degree? — He may do it
immediately after.
6(15. Is he required to undergo another examination before he obtains his license
to practice? — Yes, he might practice without this examination, but not in the king-
dom of Hanover; this is only for the Hanoverian states.
666. Does the having taken a doctor's degree in one university, at Gottingen for
instance, entitle him to a license to practice in other parts of Germany? — No; he
must then undergo an examination in the other country.
667. But must he go through the same studies in another German university before
he is entitled to practice in the country to which that other university belongs ? — That
is very different in different countries ; for instance, in Austria you can never
practice, if you have not been there from your seventh year ; and in Prussia you
must at least have two examinations, and study one year in a Prussian university.
f>6S. Do you know whether that examination which is required at Vienna for ob-
taining the degree of master in surgery, is required in any other part of Germany
for obtaining a license to practice? — Yes, it is at Berlin.
669. What is the nature of that examination which the candidate is required to
undergo? — The candidate takes by lot one part of the human body, and he must
make a preparation of it ; he must dissect it as far to show distinctly the arteries, the
nerves, and so on ; and after having done this, he must explain it publicly ; he must
make a lecture upon this part of the body ; and then by another lot he n.r>st perform
an operation publicly upon a dead body, or upon two dead bodies, and he must make
568. bandages
H4
64 MINUTES OF EVIDENCE TAKEN BEFORE
Custav Ilimli/, m.d. bandages for it publicly before the Committee, and all who like to be present;
*! - — — ' besides that, he must cure two medical and two surgical patients.
r ny f>"J0. Is the practice of exhumation had recourse to in any part of Germany with
which you are acquainted ? — No, it never is.
671 . It would be considered in the highest degree disgraceful ? — Yes, and if dis-
covered, severely punished.
672. Does that disgrace, which in Lower Germany attaches to those who touch
the bodies of animals that die a natural death, attach to surgeons in consequence
of their dissecting? — No, it does not ; even if there are executions, the surgeons go
near to observe the body.
673. Is there any considerable degree of prejudice in Germany against the practice
of dissection ? — Not at all.
674. You have stated that two sources of supply are the bodies of criminals
and of public women ? — Yes.
675. Do you know how many criminals have been executed for the last five years
at Gottingen ? — I studied at Gottingen four years and a half, and there was no one
executed at all during all that time.
676. You have said that students would object to dissect persons of family ; do
you mean by that persons with whom they are acquainted ? — Yes.
677. In consequence of the bodies of criminals and public women being given
up for dissection, does not disgrace attach to the circumstance of dissection ? — NoJ
it does not; poor people even sell their bodies.
678. Are funeral rites performed upon those bodies before dissection or subse-
quently ? — Subsequently ; but there are no great funerals at all in that part of
Germany ; almost every one is buried in the morning, very early, without any
ceremony, unless it is a man of any public character, for instance a professor ;
but the students bury their fellow-students with a great concourse.
679. Is burial given to the bodies of the poor ? — Yes ; but they are not great
funerals.
670. Are funeral rites performed over the poor ? — No, the clergyman does
not go ; if he be a particular friend of the dead, he accompanies him perhaps and
makes a speech over his tomb.
671. Is it the Calvihistic or Lutheran sect that prevails there? — The Lutheran ;
there are prayers, but no clergymen.
672. Are the prayers said over the remains? — No, they are not said, it is quite
silent; the clergyman may attend if he likes.
673. Is any large supply obtained of the bodies of those who sell themselves? —
Yes; but if people fear that others will make an outcry upon them, they give them
up in secret.
•674. Do you know the price paid under those circumstances? — No; but it is a
stated price when people are poor.
675. Do you know the population of Gottingen ? — Ten thousand five hundred.
James Moncrieff Arnott, Esq. called in; and Examined.
J. M. Amott, Esq. 676. YOU have some experience as to the practice in the hospitals and the dis-
secting schools at Vienna ? — I have.
677. Will you describe to the Committee the mode adopted for supplying the dis-
secting schools ? — The dissecting rooms are supplied with bodies from the Allgemeine
-Krankenhaus, or general hospital, a large hospital situated in one of the suburbs,
capable of containing 2,000 patients, which is usually nearly full ; no dissection is
allowed in the hospital itself, but the bodies are sent to the university in the city,
and dissection is carried on there.
678. How many students are there at the university ? — The number of students in
medicine and surgery amounts, I believe, to nearly eight hundred ; and, besides the
university of Vienna, there are other two in the Austrian dominions (exclusive of
her Italian states), viz. Prague and Pest.
C79. Are all the persons, who are allowed to practice in the Austrian states, obliged
to go to one or the other of those universities ? — They are obliged to study at one or
other of these universities, or those of Padua or Pavia, or at one or other of the
lesser schools called Lyceums, of which there are seven, I believe, in different parts
of the empire, and where medicine and surgery are taught in a less complete man-
ner than at the universities ; but my experience is limited to Vienna.
670. Is
SELECT COMMITTEE ON ANATOMY. 65
670. Is the supply obtained in Vienna from this hospital, amply sufficient for the
wants of the students ? — Quite so.
671. Is recourse had to any other means of obtaining subjects than from the bodies
of those who die in this hospital? — I ought to state, that besides this large hospital,
allotted for medical and surgical cases and lying-in-women, there are two other
hospitals, the Lunatic Asylum and that for children adjoining it, and bodies may
occasionally be furnished from either of them ; but the supply from the general
hospital is understood to be generally sufficient.
672. You never heard of it being necessary to have recourse to exhumation or
any such practice 1 — Never; such a practice is not known.
673. How many years is each candidate for a degree at Vienna required to have
studied ? — Five years for the degree of doctor in medicine, the same for doctor in
surgery, and three years for master in surgery.
674. Is there any inferior degree? — Yes, that of the practitioners, corresponding
to the class of barber-surgeons as they formerly existed in this country, and as they
still exist in many other countries of Europe.
675. Do they undergo partially the same course of study for a smaller number of
years ? — They do ; their course of study is much less complete, and is I believe of
two years duration only ; but I am not well aware of what is required of this class
of practitioners.
676. Is it required of every person who takes his degree as doctor in medicine or
surgery, that he should actually have dissected bodies ? — They, as well as masters in
surgery, must dissect bodies ; it is a necessary part of the anatomical course.
677. Are they also required to have performed the best known surgical operations
on a dead body? — The candidates for the degree of doctor in surgery, after having
passed their first examination, are obliged, in the second, to perform publicly two
surgical operations on the dead body ; the masters in surgery are in like manner, in
their second examination, obliged to dissect and give an anatomical demonstration
of some part of the body, find to perform one surgical operation upon it.
678. Are they required as well to take their degree as their license to practise? —
Doctors in medicine, doctors in surgery and masters in surgery, can practise, I be-
lieve, in any part of the empire without a license, with the exception of Vienna,
where some form is necessary to be gone through ; the individuals corresponding
to the class of barber-surgeons, who have passed at a lyceum, can only practise in
the province in which this lyceum is situated. A license, strictly speaking, is
I believe not necessary.
679. Do you believe the following to be a correct representation of the examination
which a master in surgery at Vienna is required to undergo, before he receives his
diploma? — [Handing to the ivitness a book.] — This account is a correct representation
of one of the. examinations of a doctor in surgery ; and an operation is required dence, p.
to be performed in the same manner by the candidate for the diploma of master in APril 28-
surgery.
680. Are all the patients who die in hospitals sent for dissection, or only those
unclaimed by their friends and relatives ? — The bodies of all who die in the hospital,
must without exception be opened, if such is the will of the attendant physician or
surgeon ; and this is performed by a prosector of pathological anatomy appointed by
the government for this purpose, and who removes such parts as he thinks proper
or is willing to preserve for the museum ; the bodies for dissection are those of the
unclaimed.
681 . Do you know whether a great proportion of those that die are unclaimed ? —
I believe a majority of those who die in the general hospital are not claimed.
682. What is the feeling at Vienna with regard to those who practise dissection r—
It is managed so quietly that there is no feeling shewn upon the subject; no feeling
is outraged.
683. Is there any limitation of the time with respect to bodies being kept, to allow
the relations to claim them ? — The regulation of the hospital is, that 48 hours do elapse
before the bodies, to be interred at the expense of the government, are conveyed away
for that purpose.
684. Do you wish to state anything further with respect to the practice at Vienna ?
— Bodies are also furnished for the practice of surgical operations.
68.5. Is the supply sufficient ? — Yes ; it is not so great as in Paris, but it is sufficient
for all purposes.
6%6. Do you know whether the dissected bodies are treated with the same religious
respect as the bodies oi others, after the operation has been performed? — My im-
-,6S. I pression
See printed F.vi-
66 MINUTES OF EVIDENCE TAKEN BEFORE
pression is, that no religious ceremony is subsequently performed over them, but
I am not aware of the practice upon that point; when the students had done with
them, the remains were removed.
" 687. Do you know whether any religious ceremony had taken place prior ? — I do
not; but a regulation of the hospital, with regard to the interment of the unclaimed
bodies, runs to the effect, that after having been sewn up in a cloth, they shall be
blessed by the priest, and then conveyed at night to the burying ground.
688. There was no complaint of any breach of decorum ? — No.
680. Do you wish to state anything to the Committee, either as to the nature of
the grievances to which the profession is subjected in this country, or as to any
means by which you think a supply of bodies could be obtained ? — No ; I am merely
accidentally present, and could only repeat what has been already urged upon the
Committee on these points.
690. Do you know whether any money is paid for the purchase of bodies at
Vienna, and if so, what is the price? — Foreigners have bodies at the rate of four or
five shillings.
691. Are great facilities given at Vienna to foreign students frequenting that
university? — Great facilities are given ; the government not only throws no obstacles
in their way, but grants them certain advantages. Besides being allowed to attend
the hospital and all the public lectures gratuitously, like the Austrian students, they
are also allowed to take advantage of private courses of lectures with the professors,
and which private courses are restricted to foreigners.
692. Do they attend for the purpose of dissection at the university ? — If they dis-
sect, they must have done so at the university ; but foreign students visiting Vienna
have for the most part already dissected, and go there principally with the view to avail
themselves of the advantages offered for the observation of, and the witnessing the
treatment of disease, in its large hospital, the well conducted clinics which it con-
tains, and the abilities of the professors to whose charge they are entrusted. Of
between 70 and 80 students, not natives of the Austrian dominions, who were there
during the eight months I was at Vienna, but a few dissected.
693. The question related to the facilities given to foreigners to dissect? — It is
merely necessary that you should introduce yourself to the professor of Anatomy ;
you are then admitted to the dissecting room, and bodies are furnished to you at
from four to five shillings a piece from the general hospital.
694. Was dissecting allowed in any private rooms ? — I am not aware that it was.
695. Do you happen to know whether the bodies of persons executed are given
up for dissection? — I do not wish to speak positively upon that point, no execution
having taken place at Vienna whilst I was there.
Gaetano Negri, m. d. called in; and Examined.
696. WILL you state to the Committee in what manner bodies are obtained at
Parma and Bologna, for the use of the dissecting schools ? — Dead bodies are obtained
from the hospitats for the purpose of affording instruction in the universities.
697. Is it a rule at the hospitals that the bodies of all who die there shall be given
up to the dissecting schools ? — Yes ; if they are required.
698. Do you mean without exception, whether they are claimed or not by their
relatives? — I think if a relation reclaims a body and will pay the expenses of the
funeral, they will give up that body ; but in general, die bodies of all poor people
are examined by the physicians and surgeons of the hospital, or they are sent to
the school of Anatomy.
699. Is the school of Anatomy attached immediately to the hospital, or is it a
separate establishment?- — A separate establishment in general in the university.
700. Is a large proportion of those who die at the hospitals reclaimed? — No;
very seldom.
701. Is an ample supply for the use of the dissecting schools thus obtained ?— In
general it is so; but if for some time we have not a sufficient quantity of dead bodies,
we are used to obtain dead bodies from the deposit of poor people who died, and
are buried at the public expense. There is a deposit in which all the poor people
who die are put, before they are carried out to the burial field ; there is in every parish
church in Italy a chamber, in which all the dead bodies of the poor people are
deposited during the day-time, after the religious ceremonies have been performed
over them in the church ; and in the night, they are removed to the dissecting room
or the burial fields out of the town.
702. is
lS-28-
SELECT COMMITTEE ON ANATOMY. 67
702. Is it known to the poor that the bodies of those who die, are liable to be carried G. Negri, m.
to the dissecting room, instead of being buried ? — Yes, to those in the hospital ; and v- ^
in general poor people will consider it like a duty to give their bodies for public 2 May
instruction, in reward for the charity which they receive from the hospital.
703. Then public feeling in Parma and Bologna is not much opposed to the practice
of dissection ? — Not at all ; only in the higher classes, there is sometimes a difficulty
in the physicians obtaining permission to examine a body ; but in general there is no
difficulty at all.
704. Is the practice of dissection in any degree opposed by the clergy. — Not at all.
705. How many years must a student at Parma or at Bologna have studied, before
he is entitled to his diploma ? — For his diploma of doctor in medicine or surgery
it is necessary to study four years, and before he can exercise his profession, it is
necessary to have two years practice in an hospital or a clinical school.
706. Is there any inferior degree he can take? — Only in surgery; there are three
degrees in surgery : phlebotomy, lower surgery and the higher surgery.
707. How many years is he required to have studied for the inferior degrees ? — For
phlebotomy, only three years ; for the low surgery, four years ; for the higher surgery,
six years.
708. Is it required of those who take their degree of doctor in surgery or medicine,
that they should have actually dissected ? — Yes.
709. Is it required also that they should actually have performed surgical operations
on a dead body ? — Those who are devoted to high surgery must do so.
710. You state that the funeral rites are performed on the bodies of those who
die, before the period of their burial ? — Yes.
711. It is not necessary, according to the rules of the Catholic church, that any
subsequent rites should be performed upon them after they have been dissected ? —
No.
712. Is it considered that by not performing over them any subsequent rites, the
bodies have been treated with disrespect ? — No ; they are buried without any funeral
ceremony at all.
713. Is a large number of bodies required by those surgeons at Parma and Bologna,
who follow surgery as a matter of scientific enquiry ? — Not constantly ; but there
are a certain number of dead bodies necessary for instruction.
714. Is there any further information with regard to the practice in the schools in
Italy, that you would wish to state to the Committee ? — I can tell the Committee
only, that to be admitted like a pupil of medicine and surgery, it is necessary to
undergo an examination before in philosophy ; not any one can be admitted without
the instruction that is given in the schools, and afterwards they are obliged to
undergo an examination every year for passing to the second and third, and so on. 1
715. As far as you have learned, is an ample supply of bodies obtained in all the
medical schools in Italy ? — Yes.
716. And in no part of Italy that you have heard of is the public feeling op-
to the practice of dissection ? — I think not.
717. In no case have you ever heard of the practice of exhumation being re
sorted to, to obtain a supply ? — No ; I have never heard of it.
718. What price would a student have to pay for a body, suppose he was in want
of one? — I cannot say any thing upon that, because we have always plenty without
the expense.
719. Are foreign students readily admitted to dissect in the different schools in
Italy ? — Yes ; but for dissecting it is necessary to have particular permission, because
it is necessary to have a dead body by order of the professor of Anatomy.
720. Does dissection take place only at the university, or does it take place, also
in private dissecting rooms? — At the university only and at the hospitals ; but at the
hospitals only for those pupils in practice at the hospitals.
721. Are the bodies of criminals given up by law for dissection ?— Not by law:
Granville Sharp Pattison, Esq. called in ; and Examined.
722. WHAT situation did you lately hold in the United States ? — I was professor
of anatomy and surgery in the University of Maryland, from the year 1820 to the
year 1827.
723. Will you state to the Committee how subjects are obtained for the dis-
secting schools, with which you are acquainted, in the United States of America ti —
I can speak particularly of Philadelphia and Baltimore, which are the two great
568. I 2 medical
68 MINUTES OF EVIDENCE TAKEN BEFORE
C. S. fatimu, medical schools in the United States. In every town in America, there is what is
£s9- called the Pottersfield, in which the bodies of strangers and the very poorest class
of society are buried, and the supply for the dissecting rooms is obtained almost
3 i?I«y wholly from those pottersfields.
724. Do you mean that the supply is obtained by exhumation ? — Yes.
725. Is the supply so obtained ample for the wants of the dissecting schools ? —
In Philadelphia and Baltimore quite ample ; there is however an understanding with
the municipal authorities, that the men employed by the schools will not be dis-
turbed in removing the bodies from this pottersfield.
726. The practice of exhumation is opposed to the law of the United States as it
is to the law of this country? — Every state in America has its own particular laws,
and in some of the eastern states the laws against exhumation are quite as severe as
they are in this country.
727. The common law of this country, generally speaking, being the foundation of
the law of the United States, would it not be opposed to the laws of that country as
of this? — In the state of Maryland there is a slight punishment, some slight fine,
attached to a person detected in the act of exhumation ; but all the municipal au-
thorities give orders that those individuals, employed by the public institutions, shall
not be disturbed.
728. Is the feeling of the public much opposed to the practice of dissection? — I
think quite as much as in this country.
729. Do you think that that feeling is owing to the manner in which the bodies
are obtained ; namely, exhumation ? — I have no doubt that that operates strongly
in producing the feeling.
730. What is the number of students that you remember to have frequented the
anatomical schools, either of Philadelphia or of Baltimore ? — The last year I lectured
I had in my class 347 students at Baltimore.
731. What do you consider to be the least number of bodies which a surgical
student should dissect, to acquire such a competent knowledge of Anatomy and
Surgery as should entitle him to practise ? — I should consider that to be at all quali-
fied even for the duties of a country practitioner, where it is not to be supposed he
would be called upon to perform serious operations of surgery, that at least he ought
to dissect the four great systems; that he ought to dissect them at least six times each ;
so that twelve subjects, I would say, would not be too much.
732. For each student ? — Yes.
733. In that number of twelve, do you include the number necessary for him to
perform the leading surgical operations upon? — A person may perform the leading
surgical operations upon a bod}', and use the body afterwards for dissection ;
except the operations of amputation, the body is not injured by performing a sur-
gical operation upon it.
734. Do you mean that twelve should be the number that he should have dis-
sected during the whole course of his education, or the number in one year? —
During the whole course of his education.
735. To what period would you extend the course of his education? — The lowest
period, three years ; certainly the very lowest period.
736. Are the bodies of persons, who have been executed for crimes, given up for
dissection in the United States? — No, in no part of it.
737. What may be the price paid for a body taken from the pottersfield? — The
highest price in Baltimore is from two dollars to four, at 4s- 6cl. the dollar.
738. When you say the pottersfield is appropriated to strangers and the poorest
class, you mean that those persons are buried there who are interred at the public
expense? — There are some of the low free negroes who cannot pay for a piece of
ground, buried there.
739. By strangers you mean those who have no friends to claim the bodies? — Yes.
740. Does the circumstance of there being a slave population in this soutl)ern
province of the United States, lead to there being a more easy supply of bodies than
in the northern states? — There is certainly a much more easy supply in the southern
than in the northern states ; but that may depend partly upon the large slave popu-
lation, and partly upon the number of strangers that there are in the southern cities.
-41. Does the supply so obtained consist principally of negroes, or of whites ? — I
think about an equal part whites and negroes.
742. Do you understand that great difficulties have arisen in New York in ob-
taining a supply ? — About eight years ago, from some imprudence in the persons
employed in dissection, there was a riot in New York, and after the riot very
considerable
SELECT COMMITTEE ON ANATOMY. 69
considerable difficulties were opposed to procuring subjects ; I understand however G. S. PattUon,
now, although the supply is not so ample as in Philadelphia and Baltimore, yet still
bodies can be easily procured in New York for ten dollars.
743. Do you not think, that if a law were passed in America, that gave up the
bodies of murderers for dissection as in this country, it would augment the diffi-
culties?— I have no doubt of it; and another point I would mention, although it
may be out of place, that the bodies of criminals executed are not at all calculated
for dissection, allowing the number was much greater for that purpose.
744. In what respect? — The body of a person in full health who dies a violent
death, in the course of twenty-four hours has passed into a state of putrefaction.
745. Are there any public hospitals at Philadelphia or Baltimore? — Yes, there are.
746. Are the bodies of those who die there given up for dissection? — No, they are
all buried, but the graves are frequently not filled up; a small quantity of earth being
merely thrown in, and left in such a state, that a person going from the public in-
stitution can with very little trouble indeed exhumate the body.
747. Are they buried in a burying ground attached to the hospital, or in a public
one ? — There was annexed to one establishment, at a short distance from Baltimore,
a small burying ground ; but previous to that establishment the bodies were buried
in the pottersfield.
748. How can any subjects in a healthy state be obtained, unless the bodies of
those who have been executed, be delivered up for dissection? — Accidents afford
a more abundant supply than murders.
749. And how can the healthy structure be observed but in the bodies of those who
have met with violent deaths ?— There is no change produced in the general struc-
ture of the body, except in the particular diseased part ; if a person, for example,
dies of consumption, with tubercles in the lungs, the structure of the lungs is changed ;
but the muscles, the blood vessels and the other parts of the system are not in any
respect changed ; there may be less fat about the muscles, but no change of structure.
750. With regard to your experience in the University of Glasgow, will you state
what you know of the difficulty of obtaining bodies there ? — When I studied in
Glasgow, I was, for the last four years of Mr. Allen Burn's life, his demonstrator;
at that time bodies were procured by exhumation, and the supply required for
the teacher could be obtained ; and for the pupils immediately belonging to the
teacher, those bodies were always procured by the students themselves.
751. You mean that the pupils themselves disinterred the bodies? — Yes, always ;
every public teacher had what he called his private party ; this consisted generally
of eight students, and those young gentlemen went out themselves and exhumed the
body.
752. Did you not think it a most distressing thing, that young men of education
should be compelled to have recourse to such a practice, as the only means of learn-
ing their profession ?— Certainly, most distressing; but that was the only possible
way that a man could obtain anatomical knowledge.
753. Was the number so obtained sufficient or insufficient for the purposes of in-
struction ? — Quite sufficient at that time for the instruction of the class, that is to
say, to enable the professor to carry on his lecture ; but there was no supply for the
students to make dissections themselves, except a few students who were iortunate
enough to belong to the private party of the professor ; I suppose the whole time
I studied in Glasgow, that there was not probably a single student, who did not
either belong to the private party of Dr. Jeffray or the private party of Mr. Allen
I'urns, that had an opportunity of making any dissection ; it Mas not only most
abhorrent to the feelings, but attended likewise with very great personal risk; very
frequently they were shot at, when engaged in the process of exhumating.
754. Do you remember any serious accident of the kind having happened ? — I have
known cases where a few- small shots have been received, but no serious accident.
755. Is the state of public feeling on the subject still more aggravated in Scotland
than in this country? — There has been a very considerable change since I left Scot-
land, and now the schools in Scotland are in a most deplorable state ; it is now
quite impossible to procure above two or three bodies in the course of a year by
exhumation, and the plan that has been adopted, is to salt those bodies and dry
them.
756. Do you not consider that even in your time, all the students who sought
surgical education at Glasgow, were insufficiently educated ? — Quite unfit for the
performance of the duties of their profession.
757. From what vou have learnt since you quitted Glasgow, do you believe it still
568. I 3 to
70
MINUTES OF EVIDENCE TAKEN BEFORE
to be the case? — I believe it is much worse ; I went when in Edinburgh to the pro-
fessor of Anatomy's lecture ; he was lecturing upon a most important part of Ana-
tomy, the muscles of the neck ; and although I am very familiar with the parts there,
2 May they were so changed from putridity, and so unlike what they are in a state of
l8"8' nature, it Mould have been impossible for me to have formed an idea, if I had
not known it was the neck of a subject, that the professor of Anatomy was teaching
this important piece of Anatomy.
758. In your time, in what manner did the police or magistrates treat the practice
of exhumation ; were they vigilant in their endeavours to prevent or detect the com-
mission of the offence; zealous to expose it to the public eye, when detected, and
severe in punishing it, upon conviction ; or on the contrary, were they disposed to
tolerate and overlook the offence, as being, under the existing laws on the subject,
an unavoidable and necessary evil ? — On the contrary, they behaved with the
greatest severity ; in my own individual case, the first year I taught, there was a
body disinterred, and there was a skull without teeth found in my dissecting rooms ;
and because this person had had no teeth, I was dragged away by the police, car-
ried through the populace, pelted with stones ; I was then indicted, and tried like
a common criminal in Edinburgh, a man sitting on each side of me with a drawn
bayonet.
759. What was the result of the trial? — An acquittal, which cost me 520/.
760. With regard to the hospitals either at Glasgow or Edinburgh, is it the prac-
tice to give up the bodies of those who die in the hospitals, either for examination or
dissection? — With the consent of the friends, the bodies are examined; but the con-
sent is always required.
761. Do the friends always consent? — In the majority of instances they do ;
the professional man takes pains to obtain it.
762. Is any considerable proportion of the bodies of those who die in the hospitals,
unclaimed ? — A large number.
763. Are the bodies of those unclaimed, examined or dissected ? — If the medical
gentlemen require it, there is no objection made in the case of an individual who
dies without relations.
A. B. called in; and Examined.
j B 764. IS it not your occupation to obtain bodies for the anatomical schools-? —
^^ / Yes, it has been for some years.
765. What are the causes of the present rise in the price of bodies? — Because
they are scarce.
766. To what do you attribute their being scarce ? — Because every ground in
London is watched by men put into them at dark, who stop till day-light with fire
arms.
7C7. Then very great risk now attends the obtaining bodies ? — The risk is almost
beyond describing.
768. Can you now obtain a sufficient supply of bodies, by raising them in London?
— No, you cannot.
769. Are you obliged to obtain a part from elsewhere ? — Yes, a part.
770. What are the risks to which you are subject in the attempt ? — You are
subject to be shot in the first place, and in the next place, if you are taken, the parish
prosecutes you, and you may get six or twelve months imprisonment, according as
the chairman likes.
771. Have you men in your employ for the purpose of obtaining bodies ; that is,
would you call yourself at the head of a set? — I have worked with one man for seven
years.
772. Are the other persons who are at the head of parties, employed in raising
bodies ? — There might be some ; but there are many who never supply the schools,
and never will.
773. Are not the persons at the head of parties, in the habit of giving information
against one another ? — Yes, they are.
774. It is to that you ascribe a part of the present difficulties ? — Yes, that has
gone a great way towards exposing of the business.
775. In general, what punishment should you expect if you were caught in the
act of raising a body? — I was sentenced to six months imprisonment.
776. Should you now consider the business as worth following, if you could find
another?— Yes, it is worth following, if you can get subjects; a man may make a
good
SELECT COMMITTEE ON ANATOMY. 71
good living at it, if he is a sober man, and acts with judgment, and supplies the schools ; 4" B-
but that is now out of his power ; there is so much difficulty. ' - —
(7b Doctor Somerville.) — You have some experience as to the conduct of these 2P1oy
men ; some are persons who conduct themselves fairly in their situation, and some
otherwise ; will you state what you know of the conduct of the witness ? — The witness
is not one of those who live by other means but what he professes.
Is he one of those who inform against the dissectors, after supplying them? — No.
777. (To A.B.) — State what you know of the conduct of some of the other persons
employed in raising bodies ? — There is a great many of them that profess to get sub-
jects, that I suppose do not get four subjects in a twelvemonth ; a great many of
them that has lately got into the business, and have almost been the ruin of it.
778. Is not the raising bodies sometimes a mere pretence for being occupied in
other employments ? — That I believe of a great many of them.
779. What are those employments for which you think the raising of bodies is
sometimes made a cover ? — I think for thieving, by the greatest part of the men that
have lately got into the business ; they are nothing but petty common thieves.
780. Does their pretence of being engaged in raising bodies, give them great
facility for carrying on thieving ? — Yes.
781. In what way? — Being out late at night; because if they are met by the
police, they can say they are out getting subjects for the surgeons.
782. They have usually a horse and cart ? — Yes, some of them keep them, and
if not, they hire them.
783. Do you know of any cases in which men pretending to be employed in car-
rying bodies, were discovered in the act of carrying stolen goods ? — Yes, I do.
784. Have they been detected by the police officers ? — Yes, before the felony was
committed ; but the intention was to commit a felony ; they had a horse and cart
for it.
785. Do you think that many, besides yourself, of those employed in raising
bodies, make a regular living by it? — I should suppose there are at present in
London between forty or fifty men that have the name of raising subjects, and that
there is but two more besides myself that get their living by it.
786. Do you include in this number of forty or fifty the Spitalfields gang ? — Yes ;
I include a great number of them, but not all.
787. You do not think the number exceeds fifty? — It is about fifty ; it might be
greater ; but there are so many, I do not know them all, though I have seen a great
many.
788 What do those men do to prejudice one another, when they frequent the same
church-yard ? — If they find anybody else goes there and gets subjects, and they
have not their share in the concern; or, when the subjects are sold, if you do not
give them a part of the money, the next day they will go and inform against you,
and have the grave opened ; that has been frequently the case.
789. Have you ever known them to open the graves and leave them in disorder,
foi the purpose of creating an alarm ? — Yes, I have.
790. Have you ever known them to leave the coffins sticking up in the church-
yard?— Yes, I have, and the shroud over the ground.
791. Do the grave-diggers and sextons ever wink at the practices of those who
raise the bodies? — If you get subjects for any constancy out of any burying-ground,
you cannot do it without bribing those people.
792. Are you, by bribing, able to gain information regularly when bodies are
buried ? — If you are friends with a grave-digger, the thing will be all right to know
what bodies to get ; if you are not, you cannot get them.
793. Do not many refuse to take any bribe ? — Yes, there are some (owing to
others having lost the situation) who would not for 100 guineas consent to a body
being got, if they have succeeded to one who has been discharged.
794. What is the greatest number of bodies you have got in any one time ? — The
most I have got was twenty-three in four nights.
795. What was the price then? — Four or five guineas ; there was no difficulty
in getting subjects then.
796 Do you know how many you raised that year ? — No, I never kept any
strict account of how many.
797. About how many ? — Sometimes I got more, and sometimes not so many.
79S. Did you ever get 100 in a year? — Yes, but it was only one year; perhaps
the next year I did not get above 50 or 60.
799. Do you think it safe now to go into a burying-ground in London to remove
I 4 bodies ? —
L8a8.
72 MINUTES OF EVIDENCE TAKEN BEFORE
bodies? — No, it is very dangerous, because they have constables; either a man
risks his life or his liberty.
2 May 800. What do you think to be the feeling in London, of persons of the lower
classes in life, concerning surgeons having bodies for dissection ? — They would not
mind shooting a man as dead as a robber, if they caught him in a church-yard ;
if you were pointed out that you are a resurrection man, they are prejudiced against
you.
801 . Do you think the dissecting of murderers tends to increase the dislike of the
lower classes to dissection ? — In my opinion, the public think there are none lit to
be dissected but very bad characters, through that very thing.
802. They think it a kind of penalty that ought to be attached to criminals only ?
— Yes ; the public are prejudiced against every thing of the kind.
803. Do you think, if bodies were obtained in some other way, without raising
them, that the public would then care much about surgeons practising dissection,
for the purpose of their learning their profession? — I should think there would be
prejudice for a little time, but in the course of time it would wear off.
804. Suppose the bodies of all persons dying in hospitals, complete strangers to
this place, with no relatives whatever near, do you think the public would care much
their bodies were dissected ? — No ; I should think the public would care nothing
about it, because they would not know it.
805. Suppose the bodies of those who die in workhouses, and have no friends to
claim them, were given up, do you think that the public would be much against that
practice ? — There is no doubt that the inhabitants of the parish where the work-
house was situated, would be prejudiced a little while; but they would come round
after a time, and they would know it would be done for the good of the public.
806. How far do you think the Irish care about the bodies of their countrymen
being dissected, provided they have been waked beforehand ? — They are more
against it than the English.
807. Do you think, provided the body had been waked beforehand, they would
very much object to dissection ? — Yes ; they are so much against it, they would
not mind killing anybody that did it.
808. Did you ever hear of any Irish selling the bodies of their relatives after the
wake is over? — I never knew any instance of it, not myself; 1 never did.
809. You stated just now that sextons have so often lost their places from
having an understanding with resurrection men, it was very difficult to come to such
arrangements ? — Yes.
8 1 o. Was there any particular cause that led to their losing their places ? — Yes ;
they were informed against by other men in the business.
81 1. Do you think, if the law permitted the voluntary disposal of bodies to sur-
geons, for the purpose of dissection, that the practice of exhumation would continue?
— No ; because, if it continued, it would be the fault of the lecturers.
812. Do you not think the lecturers would have an object in promoting exhu-
mation, in order to get bodies cheaper ? — Now they pay very dear for them ; I do not
know how they would get them then.
813. If the law were altered in the manner alluded to, would you continue the
practice ? — No.
814. You do not think, if there were a tolerably sufficient supply from other
sources, that the returns would be sufficient to induce you to encounter the dangers
of exhumation ? — No, I would never go to open a grave.
81.5. Would such permissive laws be the best protection to church-yards? — Yes.
to supply schools; because, if they get the subjects from the hospitals and our work-
houses, they would not rob the grave.
816. Have you ever been shot at? — Yes, and I suppose I was not above two yards
from the men that shot at me ; it was a little bit of ground behind a chapel ; they
laid by in the chapel for me and another man ; we were after two subjects.
817. When you take bodies, you make no distinction between high or low, rich or
poor? — When I go to work, 1 like to get those of poor people buried from the
workhouses, because, instead of working for one subject, you may get three or four ;
I do not think during the time I have been in the habit of working for the schools,
1 got half a dozen of wealthier people.
8'. 8. Do vou not usually work upon information ? — Yes, I do.
8i(). Of the other men who are employed in raising bodies, how many are there
vou would consent to «o out with: — Not above two or three.
820. Whv
SELECT COMMITTEE ON ANATOMY. 73
820. Why would you not go out with the others? — Because it would not be safe A.B.
to go out with them. ^- ; '
821. Why not safe? — Because they are all thieves, and they never supplied the 2 Uny
schools in their lives ; they get a subject or two, and call themselves resurrection- ' ' '
men.
John Webster, M. v. called in; and Examined.
822. HAVE you had any experience in the schools of Germany and Italy ? — I j. Webster, m. d.
have visited almost all the principal medical schools of Germany, Italy, and France.
S23. You have heard the evidence of those witnesses who have stated the prac-
tice in the schools of Germany and Italy ? — I have.
824. Should you confirm the evidence of those witnesses, as far as your knowledge
goes?— I should most certainly.
825. Is there any information which you possess, and could add to the information
already given ? — With regard to the mode of examination at Berlin, I think I can
§tate all the particulars, since Paris, Pavia, and Berlin, are the universities I have
resided most at, having passed a winter at each.
826. Is there any thing peculiar attaching to the university at Pavia, either as to the
mode of obtaining bodies, or the examinations that the candidates for diplomas are
required to undergo? — I know of nothing particular, in addition to what Dr. Negri
has stated regarding examinations and dissection at other Italian universities. The
facilities for studying Anatomy are very considerable at Pavia ; at no school I have
visited, are they so great.
827. Are the bodies obtained from the hospital? — Yes, I have always understood
so ; and if that was not sufficient, they were obtained from other hospitals, in the
Milanese territories.
828. Were you aware of the practice, that a supply was also obtained from the
bodies of those paupers whose friends could not afford to bury them? — I cannot
speak of my own knowledge as to that point.
82y. Are the candidates for diplomas at Pavia required actually to perform surgical
operations upon dead bodies ? — I believe they are, and the examinations at Pavia
take place, if I recollect right, every year ; the student is examined, as to his pre-
vious acquirements, before he is admitted to another course, and there are several
examinations; I cannot speak as to the exact mode; I was not examined there; at
Berlin I was.
830. What is the practice at Berlin ? — The facilities are great at Berlin, indeed all
over Germany I never heard of any difficulty.
831. What were the sources from which bodies were obtained? — I understood they
were from the prisons and hospitals-; but I cannot speak as to legislative enactments.
832. What can you state as to the examinations which a candidate for a degree is
required to undergo ? — He must have studied at least four years in some university
jn Germany or elsewhere ; one must be at Berlin.
833. And during those studies, must he have dissected, and performed operations
on the dead body ?■ — At Berlin they grant the degrees of doctor of surgery and
doctor of medicine ; generally speaking, the pupil takes the degree of both
doctor of surgery and doctor of medicine ; he is first minutely examined by the
professors upon his knowledge of Anatomy, and all the other branches of medical
science, at three different periods; he must afterwards publish a thesis, which he
has to defend publicly, on a day appointed by himself, in the great hall of the
university ; when any professor or students, besides the two named for that purpose,
may of course examine him, in any way they choose, upon the subject of his thesis,
which, as well as the examinations, must all be in the Latin language. It is not
required to dissect publicly to obtain a degree ; I was not myself so examined.
834. Do you know the distinction between taking a degree, and taking out a license
to practise, whether both are necessary? — In Prussia, and I believe all over Germany,
you must first have a degree from a university, before you can obtain permission to
practise, either as a surgeon or a physician ; after two years, I think it is, you are
examined by those appointed for that purpose, to get a license to practise in a par-
ticular state or town ; but I understand this is more a^municipal regulation, than
appertaining to the university.
835. What is the price of subjects? — I never heard of any person paying for a
subject ; I did not dissect myself at Berlin, although I attended the anatomical and
other professors.
568. K 836. Is
74 MINUTES OF EVIDENCE TAKEN BEFORE
J. WOiHc, m. d. 836. Is there more than one dissecting school, at Berlin, where dissections can take
-^ ' place? — In the university only, as far as I know, where the supply is ahundant.
2 May 837. Do students of all nations resort to the university? — Yes ; I was the only
«8s8. ^ Englishman there, and I found every facility for study.
838. What, do you consider, is the number of subjects which a student, during
the course of his surgical education, ought to dissect? — Eight or ten ; and if
I may judge from the Italian students, the number ought to be greater.
839. What is the number at the Italian schools? — Ten or a dozen, and sometimes
more ; the fact is, most students on the Continent perform all surgical operations,
first upon the dead body, besides dissecting ; and the supply being abundant, they
can thus easily perform them.
840. You think they ought to have that facility? — Most assuredly, and I think that
this is one of the advantages which the foreign students possess over the English ;
for the former, besides dissection, have ample opportunities of performing all kinds
of operations upon the dead subject, almost as often as they please, by permission
of the professor; in this country that is nearly impossible.
841. Is the practice of exhumation known in Italy or Germany? — I have not
heard of such an evil.
842. Did you find any existing prejudice against dissection, either in Italy or Ger-
many?— I am not aware of any.
843. Is there any supply in Germany from the executions of criminals? — I should
think exceedingly limited ; in proof of this I may mention an instance, which was
told me of a person who had been executed at Berlin a few years before I went
there, and it was mentioned as an event in the history of that capital. There were
no executions all the time I remained in Germany ; I believe they are exceedingly
rare in that country.
844. What can you state with regard to the feelings of the English public as to
dissection? — I think the English public have less objection to dissection now, par-
ticularly regarding the opening of bodies after death, than they had when I com-
menced my professional studies about twenty years ago ; as to dissection by teachers,
I cannot speak ; I allude to the examination of bodies after death.
84.5. Do you know the practice in the dissecting schools of any of the large pro-
vincial towns in France ? — I have been at Montpelier, not studying, only passing
through; on inquiry, I have understood that the supply of subjects, for the dissecting
room there, is obtained a good deal from Lyons; Montpelier being a small town, and
not very populous, it is not sufficient for the anatomical school ; therefore, I have
been informed that Lyons supplies it in part, as also Marseilles.
846. Have you any thing further to say to the Committee, or do you wish to state
your views regarding the mode of supplying the anatomical schools in this country
with subjects? — Regarding the mode of supplying the schools, — 1st. I think repeal*
ing the law that makes it part of the punishment for murder, would be a material
step towards it ; sdly. Repealing the law that makes it a misdemeanor, if a mem-
ber of the Colleges of Physicians or Surgeons, or of the Company of Apothecaries,
has a subject for the purpose of dissection in his possession ; 3dly. I am of opinion
that the bodies of all those that die in workhouses, hospitals, or other eleemosynary
institutions, which are unclaimed, and who have been supported by or would be
buried at the public expense, ought to be given up for dissection, the remains re-
ceiving christian burial afterwards.
847. Would you have that law, as to the latter part, compulsory or permissive? —
I think it would be necessary to have some efficient board or officer to manage the
distribution of the bodies obtained from those institutions to the different anatomical
theatres; and I should think, if the supply was sufficient, that it would not be
required to be compulsory.
848. Would you not think it prudent, in the first instance, to render a change of
system more agreeable to the feelings of the public, to have it only permissive?— -
Yes, I should object to any thing compulsory in the first instance, and I should
always wish to respect the feelings of the public.
SELECT COMMITTEE ON ANATOMY.
Luna, 5° die Maij, 1828.
David Gale Arnott, Esquire, called in ; and Examined.
849. YOU are surgeon to the hospital-ship Grampus ? — I am.
850. Will you state to the Committee what is the average number of patients 5l\iay
who receive relief on board that ship daily? — I think 125. i8a8.
851. What is the average number of patients yearly ? — Eighteen thousand five
hundred and fourteen in the year 1826.
852. What is the average number of the deaths of the patients received on board
that ship ? — I have taken 128 as the average in the same year.
853. Do the persons who receive relief consist principally of natives or of foicigners r
— Of both ; of seamen of all nations.
854. Are you in the practice on board that vessel of opening the bodies after
death ? — Yes, whenever we wish to do so.
855. Is any large proportion of those who die claimed by friends or relatives ? —
One-sixth is claimed.
856. Do the patients seem aware that in case of their death they will be subject
to surgical examination ? — I believe so.
857. Did you ever hear them express any anxiety upon the subject of their
bodies being opened after death? — I think sailors have a great superstitious dread of
being opened.
858. Did you ever hear the patients on board the Grampus express any great
anxiety of being opened in case they should die ?— I do not think I ever did.
859. Is it well known to them that they will be opened ? — I have no doubt of it ;
not the least.
860. Are you in the habit merely of opening the bodies, to discover the cause of
their decease, or are you in the habit of dissecting them? — Only of examining the
morbid parts, certainly.
861. Do you conceive there would be any great objection to giving up the bodies,'
either before or after examination, for the use of the dissecting schools in London ?
— I would object to have them given up previous to my examining them, and it
would remain after that with the committee of governors, and not with me at all.
862. You who have witnessed the different stages of their complaints, would be
desirous of examining the body, for knowing more perfectly what the nature of their
complaint has been? — I am only desirous of examining bodies when there has been
any degree of obscurity in the disease.
803. Then do you, in fact, examine all, or only part of the bodies? — A very
small proportion.
864. As far as your own opinion goes, subject of course to the discretion of the
governors, do you think there would be any great objection to giving up the bodies of
patients, unclaimed by friends or relations, for the use of the dissecting schools of
London ? — I could only answer for myself, that I should have no objection ; I should
be very desirous of it; indeed, I should think the committee of governors would be
anxious to promote any thing that would be conducive to science.
865. And from that source not less than one hundred bodies annually might be
obtained for the use of the school ? — Yes, including those I have named ; I may add,
one-third of those who died in the year 1 826 were persons who had no relations or
connections ; I may say, that five-sixths were consequently buried at the expense of
the charity in 1826; I have taken that as the average.
866. Do you conceive that the giving up the bodies of those that are unclaimed,
would act prejudicially to the purposes of the charity ; that it would deter sailors
from having recourse to that hospital for relief? — In the first instance I think it
would ; but the patients we frequently receive (which accounts for the great propor-
tion of the deaths) are in the last stage of disease ; they have been four, five,
and six months on board ships without medical attendance, and they frequently
die soon after they come into the hospital.
867. Are they sailors principally of merchant-ships? — They are sailors of mer*
chant-ships, and sailors who have met with accidents in the river Thames ; and we
have also a proportion from the navy.
868. Are those who die, buried at the expense of the charity ? — About five-sixths
of them are.
869. Do you think, if it was known that they would be dissected, that there
5G8. K 2 would
Appendix, N°i5.
76 MINUTES OF EVIDENCE TAKEN BEFORE
D. G. Amott, would not be a greater disposition on the part of their friends to claim them ? —
Esq. I think there would ; I did not reply to the former question as to the prejudices
., 'they would have; I think the sailors are the most superstitious men upon the
5 May earth or upon the waters, and tlvey would be full of prejudices upon the subject.
i8j8. 8^0> That Would make a difference in your calculations? — I should think it
would.
871. Do you think, if the penal law which gives the bodies of murderers for dis-
section, were repealed, it would have any effect in removing the repugnance of the
sailors to dissection? — My opinion is, that it would overcome all prejudices.
872. Then you refer the existing repugnance very much to giving up the bodies of
murderers? — Very much ; half of the persons who died on board the Grampus in
1826, were foreigners.
Sir Henry Halford, m. d. called in ; and Examined.
873 I Believe you are president of the Royal College of Physicians ? — I am.
874. Having delivered in a Return of the physicians and licentiates of the Royal
College of Physicians, admitted in 1827, do you think that the number contained
in that return, viz. sixteen, may be taken as a fair average of the number usually
admitted in the course of a year ? — I think it is the fair aTerage number.
875. Will you state to the Committee whether the candidates for fellowships,
or the candidates for admittance to practise as licentiates, are required to have gone
through a course of anatomical dissection ? — Certainly.
876. Will you state whether they are required simply to have attended lectures on
anatomy, or whether they are required to have themselves dissected ? — We demand
a knowledge of Anatomy of them ; 1 think they could not have acquired the know-
ledge we expect of them, without having dissected themselves.
877. The nature of the examination is so strict, that you think they would be on-
able to pass, unless they had themselves dissected ? — I think so.
878. Do you concur with the late Dr. Baillie (whose opinion is found recorded in
his posthumous works) that it is of the utmost importance to the medical as well as
the surgical practitioner, to have acquired a certain and ready knowledge of human
Anatomy, by having actually dissected ? — I think it is impossible to practise physic
rationally, without such knowledge as is acquired by dissection itself.
879. The object of the Committee being to discover, if possible, some other mode
of obtaining a supply of subjects for the schools than that of exhumation, can you offer
to the Committee any suggestions on the subject? — I do believe that they may be
procured in sufficient numbers without exhumation, but I believe it will require the
interposition of the government. I do not think it a fit subject for legislation I own,
except the removal of some statutes which may be an impediment in the way of it;
but I think it possible to do that through the medium of the Secretary of State.
880. Are you aware of the opinion given lately by a judge at Lancaster, that no
bodies were legally liable to dissection, but those of murderers ? — I take it for granted
from that, that there may be some law which makes it a misdemeanor ; and if that
be the case, 1 should hold it to be essential that that law should be repealed.
881. Are you aware of two surgical students having been found guilty of a mis-
demeanor, for having taken into their possession a body, with intent to dissect it,
knowing the same to have been disinterred ? — I am not aware of the particulars of
that case, but I have heard something said loosely upon the subject.
882. Admitting that verdict to have been correctly given, is there any professor
or any student in any dissecting school in London, who would not be indictable for
a misdemeanor? — Certainly not ; all would be liable.
883. Then if that be the state of the law, in what way do you think the Secretary
of State, -without an alteration of the law, can remove the present difficulties? —
It strikes me that it would be possible to have such a communication with magis-
trates and those who superintend poor houses, that it could be done.
884. Are you aware of a trial which took place about 40 years ago (Rex versus
Young) in which the master of a workhouse, a surgeon and another person, were in-
dicted for a conspiracy, to prevent the burial of a person who had died in the work-
house?— I was not aware of that; but I was prepared to have stated, that it was
possible to have the burial service first of all performed, which would take away
much of the difficulty. If they were not claimed in a day or two after the burial
service had been read, a hint might be given to the surgeon.
$85. Would not such a state of the law as now exists, render it unsafe for a parish
officer
SELECT COMMITTEE ON ANATOMY. 77
officer to give up for dissection the unclaimed bodies of the workhouse? — I dread
any legislative interference, any positive enactment.
88b. Would it not be necessary to alter so much of the law as renders a person
yielding up, and a person receiving bodies from the parish workhouse, for the purpose
of dissection, liable to an indictment for a misdemeanor ? — I think it highly proper
that that law should be repealed.
887. Then as far as an alteration in the law should make it permissive to sur-
geons to receive, and to parish officers to give up the body, you would not object to
an alteration in the law ? — No.
888. Do you think the repeal of the law which now gives up the bodies of mur-
derers for dissection, would tend to remove the dislike of the public to dissection ?
— Not immediately ; I do not think it could be forgotten in less than 50 years, that
dissection used to be the punishment of murderers, and therefore there would be a
prejudice still.
889. Is the present feeling very much connected with the penalty under that law ?
— I think so ; and I think the repeal of that law would not be operative for the pur-
poses in the contemplation of the Committee, for a considerable time.
890. But nevertheless, though its operation would be slow, have you any doubt
that the repeal would tend ultimately to mitigate the feelings of the public on this
subject? — I certainly think, while that law remains, they will connect the crime of
murder with the practice of dissection ; an order to be dissected, and a permission to
be dissected, seems to be too slight a distinction.
891. Do you think there is a disposition in the higher classes to permit an ex-
amination to take place, when it is necessary ? —I think, in my own experience, there
is much less objection among the higher orders now, than there was formerly. It is
a much less difficult matter now to obtain permission to examine a body.
892. You would not object to make an application for that purpose in any case?
— No ; I should not think it would hurt the relations feelings so far as to deter
me from asking.
893. Would it not be better that bodies dying in health, should l>e obtained
for dissection? — It might be advantageous, for the sake of comparison with diseased
bodies.
894. But the proportion of those who die in health, and can be obtained for dis-
section, except in a case of very frightful accident, affecting the lives of many,
would at all times be small ? — Certainly.
895 Will you state, whether you do not consider a knowledge of Anatomy
by dissection, very important to be acquired, as well by the general practitioners,
commonly called apothecaries, as by surgeons and physicians ? — It would be
absolutely necessary to the general practitioners ; I do not say that it is indis-
pensable in a man who is to make up medicines merely.
896. But inasmuch as the duty of an apothecary in the country, is not merely to
makeup medicines, but to perform the part which a surgeon or physician performs
in London, do you not think the circumstance of his having dissected, highly impor-
tant for his performing his duty well ? — No man can administer rationally to internal
diseases or to external injury, without some knowledge of Anatomy.
897. Do you not think the interests of the humbler classes are even more con-
cerned than those of the upper classes, in the more general diffusion of anatomical
science? — I should say they were, inasmuch as the humbler classes are more
numerous.
898. You said you thought one of the means of obtaining a supply of subjects,
with as little violation as possible to public decency and the feelings, would be to
perform the burial service on bodies unclaimed, and afterwards to allow the surgeon
privately to remove them ? — I think, that after the burial service had been read over
the body, if no relations or friends claimed it, then a hint might be given by the over-
seer to the anatomist or surgeon, that he might have the body to examine it as to
the disease of which it had died.
899. Do you not think it would be practicable to enforce the performance of an
engagement to be entered into on the part of the dissector, binding him to give funeral
rites and decent burial to the remains after dissection ? — Yes, I think that as great
importance is attached to the ceremony of burial, it would as much tend to mitigate
the prejudices against dissection, if you were to obtain diat security.
900. If the law authorized the dissection of persons executed for other crimes
than murder, do you think that would greatly increase the present feeling against
dissection? — I should object very much to make no distinction between person*
568. K 3 who
78 MINUTES OF EVIDENCE TAKEN BEFORE
//. HaUaed, r:.i>. Mm had offended against human nature to the utmost extremity, and common
i crimes.
5 May 901. Do you think it would increase the feeling against dissection, or lessen it? —
t8*8. I think it would increase the feeling against dissection, hy associating it with crime
of any kind.
902. Dut you would rather dissection was not made a penal enactment? — Yes.
903. It being upon evidence, that with few exceptions, those who now supply
the dissecting schools with subjects are thieves, do you think it reasonable to expect
that a magistrate or secretary of state, out of tenderness for the teachers and
students of Anatomy, should be lax in endeavouring to detect and punish this class
of offenders ? — I should think they ought not to be tolerated at all if possible, and for
the reason I will now present to your minds: when there is a difficulty in obtaining
bodies, and their value is so great, you absolutely throw a temptation in the way of
these men to commit murder for the purpose of selling the bodies of their victims.
904. Then you are of opinion, if it were possible by any other means than
exhumation, to obtain a supply of bodies, that it would be desirable to do away
with that practice ? — Most certainly.
Thomas Rose, Esq. called in ; and Examined.
Thomas Rose, 905. YOU are surgeon to St. George's Hospital and to the St. James's Paro-
l^sq. chial Infirmary ? — Yes, I am.
' 906. Will you state to the Committee, as the result of your experience, in what
light the poor regard the practice of dissection ? — In regard to the practice of dissec-
tion, that is, the giving up the bodies entirely, I have no means of judging, but I should
think the feeling is certainly against it. There is, however, a most extraordinary in-
difference in the poor about what does not immediately and personally concern
themselves, however much it may affect those in a situation similar to their own ; in
the last few years, too, there has been a very marked diminution in the objections
they were in the habit of evincing to the examinations of the bodies of their relatives.
No difficulties are now thrown in the way of such examinations, which are made
continually and almost openly ; but I conceive there still is a very considerable pre-
judice in their minds against the giving up the bodies entirely.
907. As far as a partial examination goes, you think they are nearly indifferent?
—I know that they are ; they throw no obstruction in the way ; they often inquire
what has been the result of the examination, and they see us going to make it with-
out the slightest objection.
905. Examinations in the establishment ? — -Yes.
909. Is there a dissecting establishment attached to St. George's Hospital ? —
There is not.
910. Can you state what is the number of poor who die either at the workhouse,
the infirmary or any other establishment attached to the parish of St. James's ? — In
the workhouse there are between 170 and 180 deaths in the year.
911. Is the infirmary attached to that ? — The infirmary forms a part of the build-
ing, and both are included under the same head.
912. Then from 170 to 1 So die in all the eleemosynary establishments belonging
to the parish? — That number of deaths occurs in the establishment which is called
the workhouse of the parish with the infirmary joined to it.
913 Are there any who die out of the workhouse whom the parish are required to
bury? — Yes, about 40 or 50 a year; they bring there the bodies of all poor persons
when application is made, without reference to what they are ; the mere fact of their,
having died in the parish is sufficient.
914. What proportion of this number of 50 and 170, making 220, are buried at
the parish expense ? — I understand that of the two numbers together upwards of
170 are buried at the parish expense.
915. Are the Committee to understand that this number of 170 are persons not
claimed by their relatives ? — No ; a small proportion of them are not claimed by
relatives, but the greater part are ; those not claimed may be about 40 or 50.
916. Forty or fifty of those would be claimed if the relatives were rich enough ? —
I mean that there are not more than 40 or 50 unclaimed by their relatives ; the
greater part are claimed by their relatives, but those are too poor to afford the
expense of the burial.
917. Is any objection made at the workhouse of St. James's, by the parish officers,
the surgeon of the parish examining those who die? — None whatever; there were
considerable
SELECT COMMITTEE ON ANATOMY. 79
considerable difficulties made some time ago, and then the prejudices of the poor were Thomas Ron,
very great : from the moment that those difficulties were withdrawn, and the prac- s ^l*
tice became more general, it was found that the prejudices in the minds of the poor Tm^,
began rapidly to decline. At the time when it was difficult to obtain permission to ,828,
examine a body, the poor were in a state of excitement and alarm when such exami-
nation took place ; but now we often see 50 or 60 Irishmen about the dead-house
when an examination is going on, and they appear perfectly indifferent to it.
918. Then the difficulties made by the parish officers seem to have aggravated the
prejudices of the poor against dissection ? — Most decidedly.
919. What is the number of persons who claim relationship to those who die, but
who do not pay the expense of the funeral? — I should think 130 or 140 of those
who are buried at the parish expense have relatives who take an interest in what
befalls their remains, though they are unable or unwilling to bear the expense of
interring them.
920. What objections do you foresee to making it permissive for the parish officers
to give up for dissection the bodies of those who die in workhouses and are unclaimed
by any friends or relatives ? — I am not aware of any, if proper measures were taken
to compel those who were entrusted with such bodies for dissection, to inter them
decently afterwards ; provided this were done, I think there would be no objection.
921 . A moderate security should be taken }—k security by paying down a moderate
sum of money ; I believe no objection would be made by those connected with these
establishments, if such a regulation were made.
922. Do not you think it would be more convenient, if instead of authorizing
specially parish officers to give away the bodies of the poor for dissection, the law
was made permissive to all, without distinguishing any particular class of persons ? —
It appears to me, that in framing such a law, it would greatly forward the object in
view, to refer particularly to our different public institutions, and that in such
reference a distinction might be made between those which are supported by volun-
tary contributions and donations, and those which are supported by a forced rate ;
if the governors of the former could have the power to direct and authorize an
examination, and nothing beyond that, to be made of the bodies of all who die in
them, previous to their being given over to their relatives, a power which is already
very generally assumed, I think those of the latter, of parish workhouses for instance,
might have the absolute control over the bodies of all who die in them, and that as
the relatives of the deceased had not chosen to contribute to their support whilst
they were in life, they should have no right to interfere afterwards, except by the
permission of those who had been compelled to afford that support.
923. But if the law gave authority to those persons legally, possessed of the body,
the power of disposing of it, would it not be better than specifying that the parish
officers should give up the bodies of the poor under their charge? — I would permit
the next of kin to give up the body if they chose, but would consider the governors
and directors of the poor as standing in the situation of next of kin to those persons
whom they had been compelled to maintain up to the period of their death ; I think
such a regulation would be generally beneficial in its effects, as well as afford faci-
lities for prosecuting anatomical studies.
924. You think that would not be placing the parish officers in an invidious
situation? — It would certainly be giving them considerable power, invidious power
perhaps; but those powers they never would be inclined, nor could they by any
possibility venture to abuse ; they must consult the feelings and even the prejudices
of the poor respecting their deceased relatives, and if they gave any bodies for dis-
section, it would be those who had no relatives, and this only from seeing the
necessity of anatomical science for the benefit of all ranks, and to put a stop to
the horrid practice of exhumation.
925. You heard the questions put to Sir Henry Halford with respect to the dis-
section of murderers ; do you think the doing it away would have a beneficial effect ?
— I think it would, as the law respecting the dissection of murderers increases the
prejudice against anatomical investigations.
926. Do you think the science of Anatomy would be benefited by doing away
with the dissection of murderers as a measure of punishment, and by permitting
parish officers to give the bodies unclaimed by relatives for dissection ? — I think
these two measures would be very beneficial ; as the performance of the funeral
service before bodies were given up for dissection was recommended by Sir Henry
Halford, the Committee will I hope allow me to state that such a proceeding would,
in my opinion, excite too much attention in any public institution where the body
5 6S. K 4 was
80 MINUTES OF EVIDENCE TAKEN BEFORE
Thomas Roar, w89 t° be given up for dissection ; when the remains were afterwards interred, the
Ks(j. funeral service would of course be performed, as in all other instances.
- ' 927. Would you recommend that any money should be given by the parish officers
5 May to the relatives who were disposed to allow anatomical researches on the bodies of
1828. persons?— I think the parish officers would not be disposed to encourage such
a traffic, or to negociate with those who shewed such feelings.
928. The surgeons? — To that I see no objections; if the relatives were disposed
to take money, they might afterwards, if they chose, see the funeral performed,
when the time employed in dissection had elapsed.
929. Can you state the expense of the funeral of a person dying in the parish
workhouse, including the burial fees of the clergyman and the other parish officers,
and also the expense of the coffin ; what it altogether costs the parish ? — I have
made inquiries, and understand it is altogether one pound.
930. Do you not think it would be right, in case the bodies of the unclaimed were
given up to the surgeons, to subject the surgeons to the expenses of the burial ? —
Yes, and I think something beyond that, to cover any expense the parish officers
might chuse to incur in satisfying themselves that the burial had been performed
after dissection ; perhaps double the expense of the funeral would be a fair sum ;
the surplus might form a fund for the relief of the sick, or for any charitable purpose
in the parish.
931. Do you think the science of Anatomy would gain more by repealing the
law which gives the bodies of murderers for dissection, than it would lose by the
loss of bodies dying in a healthy state? — I think we should lose nothing by that;
so many die from accidents in a healthy state, that abundant opportunities are
afforded us of making ourselves acquainted with the appearance of the different
organs and parts of the body when not impaired by disease ; I suppose at least
500 opportunities are thus afforded us, by accidents, for one, by the law respecting
murderers.
Peregrine Fernandez, Esquire, called in ; and Examined.
932. ARE you surgeon to the united parishes of St. Andrew Holborn and
St. George the Martyr? — Yes.
033- Can you state what is the number of persons who die yearly in the work-
houses, infirmaries, or any similar establishments belonging to the united parishes?
— I obtained a return for this Committee.
[The same was delivered in.']
934. Does that return contain the number of those that are unclaimed ? — Yes.
935- Will you state whether at present any objection is made by the parish officers
in these parishes to the examination, by the parish surgeon, of those who die in the
workhouses ? — When I became surgeon to this infirmary, they had not been in the
habit of opening bodies, that is about eleven years ago ; I opened almost every body
that died, and some alarm was created. A standing order was passed at our Board,
by which bodies were permitted to be examined, with the consent of two out of
four of the overseers, and their friends. That is now ten years ago ; we have had
forty overseers during that time, and I never knew an overseer refuse his consent
in any one instance.
g$6. Is much or any objection made by the poor themselves, or their relatives, to
the examination of bodies after death ? — I think three times out of four I obtain their
consent (I am speaking under the mark) ; when the question is asked, I expect the
consent of the friends that the body shall be opened. I have been frequently asked
by the paupers to open their bodies after death.
937. If security were given, that the bodies of those unclaimed by their friends
or relatives, should receive decent and christian burial, do you foresee any objection
to the giving up the bodies of those unclaimed to the surgeons? — I see no objection
myself; but I think it might startle them, if the law were imperative upon the
overseers to give them up ; it would create objections ; but if the law only permitted
them to do it, I think there would be none.
9.38. You do not think a permissive law would be objected to, in any great degree,
either by parish officers or by the poor themselves? — I feel quite persuaded it would
not. having had experience upon the subject; I will tell you why I think so; if
I were to relate an instance, perhaps, it may be more satisfactory. In the course
vf last vwiiu-r there was a question of infanticide, and the coroner did not get satis-
factory
SELECT COMMITTEE ON ANATOMY.
factory evidence from the first medical person called in ; he sent the body to me ;
I made the usual experiments, and afterwards I turned to the overseers and others,
and said, " This body, at least, as the mother rejects it, and it belongs to no one
else, there is no reason why I should not lake it away for ulterior proceedings."
They seemed rather to applaud than condemn what I proposed.
939. Then you think, if the alteration would tend to put a stop to the practice of
exhumation, it would tend to remove the dislike to dissection? — Certainly; the poor
are fond of having a " comfortable funeral ;" and if it was known that they would
not be disturbed, but they should be taken only according to the taste of the poor
people, I have no doubt there would be no objection.
940. Have you any knowledge of the feeling of the Irish with respect to dissection ?
— I am afraid they are the least disposed to give facility to the study of Anatomy.
947. Do you know if they are allowed first to wake the body, whether their
objections are considerable? — I have understood that has been suggested, but my
impression is, that it would not lessen their objection to dissections.
942. Uo you not think, if murderers were no longer given up, it would tend to
efface or mitigate their objections to dissection ? — Certainly ; while it remains part of
the punishment of murder, it must indispose any body to share part of the fate
of a criminal.
943. Would it be advisable to give the relatives or persons who chose to permit
these examinations, a sum of money to buy mourning, or for such other purposes as
might be requisite? — I have no doubt it would be better to give them money. We
have been offered to be allowed to open bodies, and to do what we liked with them,
but I have refused for obvious reasons.
944. Do you think it would be better to have funeral rites after the examination?
— It might remove an objection, but I think those who gave up the body would
have that non-chalance that they would not care about it.
945. From your frequent intercourse with the poor, do you think that many ol
them would be disposed to part, before death, with their own bodies, or that their
relatives would be disposed to part with many, in case it were made permissive to
sell bodies? — I am not sure ; I do not think that many would sell their own bodies,
but 1 think, when once it was permitted, the custom on the part of relatives would
grow.
946. Do you concur with Mr. Rose as to the expense to the parish of burying a
pauper? — I do not know the precise expense, but I think the overseers would rather
wish to save it.
1'. Fernandez:,
Esq.
5 May
Joshua Brookes, Esq. called in ; and Examined.
947. YOU were lately a lecturer on Anatomy in Blenheim-street? — I was.
948. Will you state to the Committee whether the difficulties of obtaining a supply
of bodies have not of late been very much on the increase? — Extremely so, indeed;
I have brought with me a document which I was requested by the Secretary of State,
five years ago, to send to him. I was requested, through the medium of Sir Astley
Cooper, to state the best mode by which I conceived bodies could be procured for
dissection ; it contains the whole of my opinion at this moment.
[The Paper alluded to was delivered in.]
949. Will you state whether the difficulties which have occurred with respect to
obtaining a supply of bodies for anatomical schools, have not fallen with greater
hardship upon those that are connected with private schools for Anatomy ; pri-
vate, in contradistinction to the schools for Anatomy which are attached to some
of the larger hospitals ? — They fell very heavily upon me and other gentlemen ; I do
not think the resurrection men make any variation with regard to price ; but when
I was a student I paid but two guineas for a subject, and before I left off lecturing
I paid on some occasions sixteen guineas. It is stated in that paper, that three
subject^ for which I paid sixteen guineas each, were in the course of a few hours,
or a few days, taken away again, in consequence (as I suspected), of a combina-
tion of part of the resurrection men informing against me. It was so notorious,
that Glennon, a police officer in the Borough, had a silver staff about twenty
inches long, with an inscription that it was given to. him for obtaining a body from
Mr. Brookes, as I understood. Probably this subject might have been an executed
criminal, whose body was sent to an undertaker by the friends for private inter-
ment, as such an occurrence did take place, in the following manner ; the under-
568. L taker
Joshua Brookes,
Esq.
Appendix
N° 16.
82 MINUTES OF EVIDENCE TAKEN BEFORE
taker placed the corpse in an out-housc, and during the night the resurrection
men came and carried it away, as it was afterwards proved, by the undertaker's
connivance, for which he was tried and sentenced to two years imprisonment. The
88 resurrection men subsequently brought the same subject to my theatre, for which
Rex o. Cuijdick I Pa'c' rather a large sum, how much 1 do not exactly recollect. The individual
see Appendix, was very robust, and had been tatooed on the inside of one of the arms. An infor-
N° >9« mation was in consequence laid against me at the Police Office in Union-street,
and a search warrant issued and delivered to Mr. Glennon, who, on entering the
dissecting rooms, examined the arms, and thus very readily recognized the body.
The tatooed part was somewhat remarkable, for which reason I had made an
incision all around and through the skin for the purpose of removal, but by some
accident forgot to do so.
950. Was that staff given by the parish officers ? — Yes, I believe so ; but possibly
by the friends. I think in the course of a month, three unfortunate females, who had
destroyed themselves by submersion, were brought to my house and taken away
again in a few hours, possibly a day might have elapsed, by some of the resurrection
men giving information, as I believe.
9J-1. Is it not the practice of the teachers in the schools of Anatomy, to supply the
subjects to their pupils at a given price ? — Certainly, at a price as moderate as
possible ; if we paid four guineas, as I always injected the subjects, and therefore
there was an extra expense incurred by that means ; I never made a greater demand
than two guineas for performing that process ; but when I paid sixteen guineas
1 never charged my pupils more than eight guineas, and in consequence I lost
considerably.
952. Is it not for that reason, viz. that persons at the head of private establish-
ments, as well as those at the head of larger establishments, are obliged by custom
to deliver the subjects to the pupils at a very moderate price, that the persons at the
head of private establishments are unable to continue the practice of teaching ? —
No doubt they are losers ; a very heavy expense was incurred by advertising and
printing ; I am sure I lost during the last twelve months of my teaching ; and I am
also pretty clear, but I will not positively affirm, I was out of pocket the year
before that ; I did not retire from teaching Anatomy in consequence of the loss,
but in consequence of ill-health, being unable to do that justice to the pupils which
they had heretofore experienced from me.
953. If at the great hospitals the lecturer receives twenty guineas from his pupil as
the hospital fee, and the number of such pupils is large, is not such a teacher better
able to afford the loss which attends the supply of each subject to his pupil, than a
person who has no hospital fee to meet that expense ? — I beg leave to correct a
little misunderstanding under which the Committee seem to labour; when
these gentlemen enter an hospital, they are not entitled to the attendance at the
anatomical theatre annexed to the hospital, and therefore the fee they pay at any
hospital is totally unconnected with any anatomical fee. There are many students
who attend anatomical theatres who are not attached to hospitals ; all pay alike,
according to the class in which they attend ; the fee paid for attending and dressing
at the hospitals, is totally different from that paid for dissecting and attending the
anatomical theatre.
954. Does not a large proportion of those pupils who enter themselves at the
hospital for attending the hospital practice, also enter the dissecting establishment
for the purpose of dissection ? — Undoubtedly ; the greater part I should suppose.
955. Then if in one branch of medical education there is a large gain to the teacher,
and in the other there is a considerable loss, is not the teacher attached to that
hospital better able to bear the loss upon the dissecting part of the establishment
than a teacher at a private dissecting school ? — Undoubtedly.
956. What is your opinion generally of resurrection men?— My opinion I shall give
viva voce, but it is expressed in that paper in detail ; they are the most iniquitous
set of villains that ever lived.
957. Is there any thing that is not contained in that written statement which you
now wish to state to the Committee? — Nothing further, than in answer to that ques-
tion I should state, my premises would have been laid waste, and I suppose I should
have been immolated, but for my contiguity to the police office; Sir Robert Baker
came forward with his police establishment, by which means I was protected ; but
there is a person now waiting outside this apartment, belonging to a party which here-
tofore has brought a mob about my house ; and upon one occasion one of those
persons came clandestinely into my dissecting room and cut a subject to pieces that
I had
SELECT COMMITTEE ON ANATOMY. 83
I had paid eight guineas for the night before ; you would scarcely believe, that upon Joshua firookes,
an application for five guineas at the commencement of each anatomical season, Esq.
a douceur which I refused to give them, they came at dusk in the evening with two v
subjects, in a high state of decomposition, in a little chaise cart; one of these sub- 5aM»y
jects they dropped at the Poland-street end of Marlborough-street, another they
dropped at the end of Blenheim-street, and then they went away through Argyle-street
or Carnaby-street ; and shortly after, two young ladies, nicely dressed, stumbled
over one of these horrible subjects, which raised such a commotion, that as I
before stated, had it not been for the prompt assistance of Sir Robert Baker and the
police establishment, I might have been sacrificed to popular fury.
958. That was solely to raise a prejudice against you? — Yes; to which I may
adduce the following narration, viz. on a similar demand being made at another time
by two resurrection men, and compliance refused, they said, in the presence of two
students, whilst waiting in my hall for the answer, that if I did not send out the
money (I being then engaged in the dissecting rooms) " that they would come in the
evening and raise such a mob, which would not disperse until they had pulled the house
down, without leaving one brick standing upon another ;" this threat being subse-
quently made known, I requested the same gentlemen to accompany me to the
police office in Great Marlborough-street, where the deposition being taken on oath,
the magistrate issued a warrant, which was given to Mr. Plank the head officer, to
execute against the aggressors, who were in consequence incarcerated for a certain
period. Should I be permitted further to add to the above related facts, I might state
the following atrocity committed by resurrection men : A young lady having been
afflicted with the tooth ache, had the carious tooth extracted ; but subsequently
a disease arose in the lower jaw from whence the tooth had been removed ; the
whole of the lower jaw became enlarged, and continued increasing in magnitude for
several years, until at length she seemed to have, as it were, a double head formed
by an immense secretion of osseous and cartilaginous substance, the rictus of the
mouth intervening. In this state I saw her about three months previous to her
death ; and after that catastrophe occurred, the cemetery and grave being pointed
out to one of the resurrection men, a party went in the course of a few nights and
disinterred the body, which they decapitated, bringing away the head only, but
leaving the bleeding corpse exposed on the ground, the coffin lid and shroud
being also left in different places, forming with the empty coffin, a horrible exhi-
bition to public gaze. The churchyard being at no great distance from the residence
of the defunct, a dreadful clamour was soon raised in consequence ; having been
first excited by some labourers going to work early in the morning, and seeing the
shocking spectacle that thus presented itself; the burial place being only separated
from the road by a low fence, and of course the whole inhabitants of the populous
village and its vicinity were thrown into a state of outrageous commotion by this
iniquitous and unfeeling proceeding of the depredators. The churchwardens and
overseers met as early as possible, and offered a reward of 10 guineas for the appre-
hension of the delinquents, who however escaped with impunity.
959. You consider it then highly desirable, if possible, to obtain a supply of sub-
jects by any other method than that of exhumation ? — Yes, and by any other method
than that of employing resurrection men.
Granville Sharp Pattison, Esq. again called in ; and Examined.
960. DURING your residence at Glasgow, was it the practice of the pupils to
obtain subjects by going out themselves into the burial grounds, and exhuming them?
— It was the young gentlemen of the private parties of the anatomical teachers who
exhumed the bodies.
961. Did it ever happen while you were at Glasgow, that the bodies of any mur-
derers who were executed, were given up for dissection? — It did; but the effect pro-
duced by the giving up of those bodies was to increase the difficulties and the pre-
judices existing against dissection.
962. Did it ever occur, that upon the occasion of the servants of the professor
going to receive the body, they were forcibly driven away by the people, and com-
pelled to relinquish it? — I am not aware they were ever compelled to relinquish the
body, but invariably if the body was taken from the place of execution to the class
room of the teacher, it was followed by a mob, and the individuals who carried
it off, were pelted with stones.
963. What was the price of a subject at Glasgow during your residence there? —
L 2 They
84 MINUTES OF EVIDENCE TAKEN BEFORE
G. S. Pattisou, They were not to be procured for money ; they were got, as I before mentioned,
Esq. by the young gentlemen of the private parties, and the privilege of the young
~~^ ' gentlemen who got them, was the liberty of dissection ; the only individuals who could
5 May obtain subjects for dissection in Glasgow, were those who exhumed them.
l828, 064. Did it ever happen during your residence there, that any of these young men
were detected in exhuming the body ? — In my own case, the first year I lectured,
they were not detected in the fact ; but there was a body found in the dissecting
room, which was supposed to have been the body of a person exhumed, and these
individuals were indicted with myself, and tried before the circuit court in Edin-
burgh, and although acquitted by the jury, the expenses of the trial cost me 520/.
sterling.
965. Is it to any particular circumstance that you attribute the extraordinary de-
gree of dislike to dissection which exists in Scotland ? — I think that not only in
Scotland, but all over the country, the dislike arises in part from exhumation, in part
from its being a part of the penal law that the bodies of murderers should be dissected,
and in part from the great mystery that is thrown about dissection ; there is a very
strong fact which, perhaps, it may be important for the Committee to know, as it
proves, when the public comes to know the nature of dissection, the prejudice which
exists against it is removed ; Mr. Crompton, the surgeon general of Ireland, mentioned
to me that when he began to teach Anatomy, he built a small dissecting room ; and as
the thing was known to all the persons employed in the neighbourhood, he thought
the best way to carry on his anatomical pursuits was to leave the door open, that
the public might come in and look at his dissections and attend his lectures ; and
the consequence was, that a great number of porters and ostlers, and the poorer
people came in to his lectures ; and after they were finished, he took the opportunity
of pointing out to them the structure of the body, and the importance of this being
known, &c. ; the effect produced was, that the whole lower orders around became
so interested and so favourably disposed to dissection, that they brought him bodies
themselves; and I think, in nine instances of bodies of individuals who had been
exhumed, the relations who discovered it, came with the greatest calmness, and
said they believed he had the body of a wife or child, but they did not wish to make
any disturbance ; they came and saw the body, and had it removed without the
slightest commotion.
966. You are of opinion, therefore, that the laying before the public the real state
of the case, and public discussions upon this subject, will in no way tend to injure the
case of the surgeons in the mind of the public ? —I am quite satisfied it will not ;
I can speak from my own experience in teaching Anatomy popularly, which I have
done to a general audience ; that I have found the prejudice which existed in the
minds of the lower orders, was at once removed ; that they were not aware what
dissection was, till they saw it performed ; and when they saw it performed, they no
longer looked upon it with the detestation which before existed.
967. Do you speak of your experience in Glasgow, or in the United States? —
I am speaking of my experience at Glasgow and in the United States ; for I have
taught Anatomy popularly in both countries.
968. Is there any other matter connected with the inquiries of the Committee which
you wish to state to them ? — I am not aware of any thing ; if my opinion were
asked as to the best plan for procuring bodies, I should say I agreed with the mode
which has been recommended by most of the gentlemen who have been examined ;
I conceive that all the difficulties which at present exist against dissection would be
removed, if the law which at present renders it penal or criminal to have any body
but the body of a murderer, were repealed, and bodies were allowed to become
property, that they might be disposed of by their relatives, or. in case of strangers,
mi'dit be disposed of by the parish officers. There has been a difficulty suggested in
conversation with some of my friends as to the manner in which these bodies could be
disposed of; but I conceive it would be only necessary for the teachers of Anatomy
in every town to associate, and give security in the first instance that all the bodies
taken to a particular place, either to a school of anatomy or some hospital, should
be received, and a certain sum paid for them ; and being received there, they should
be disposed of to the different teachers of Anatomy, in proportion to the number
of students attending their lectures ; I have no doubt if this was done, all the dif-
ficulties which anatomists at present experience, would be removed in a few years.
969. Would you have the funeral rites performed? — I would have security given
that after the body has been dissected, the funeral rites should be performed.
970. You regard the repeal of the law concerning the bodies of murderers as one
of
1828.
Southwood Smith.
SELECT COMMITTEE ON ANATOMY. 85
of the essential measures for effecting a change in the public mind ? — Certainly; there
is nothing in which the poor are so much interested as allowing students of medi-
cine a liberal supply of dead bodies ; in America, where dissecting is permitted,
I have no hesitation in saying that the general mass of practitioners are much better 5 May
educated, and much better qualified to perform the duties of their profession than
they are in this country ; you find there men, in every little village, performing the
capital operations of surgery, and performing them very ably indeed.
971. So that the poor are very greatly benefited by that extension of knowledge,
which you attribute to the facilities they receive in practising dissection ? — Yes ;
I am satisfied that in Scotland it is impossible for a person to obtain a correct
knowledge of the structure of the human body.
972. In America, have the surgeons of whom you speak, had an opportunity of
performing on the dead body the principal operations of surgery ? — Always ; in Glas-
gow, at present, bodies are so scarce, that they are salted in the summer, and hung
up and dried like Yarmouth herrings, and the next winter they are put into water,
and when putrefaction commences, the parts are exposed ; and it is expected that a
man is to acquire all the knowledge necessary for the practice of his profession, from
such exhibitions.
973. Then if an accident happens to a man in that country, the practitioners would
be unable to afford him that relief which they would in a country where dissection is
permitted ? — Certainly ; and I attribute the superiority of that class of practitioners
in America to the opportunities they have for dissection.
Dr. Southwood Smith, called in ; and Examined.
974. YOU are lecturer on physiology at the Webb-street School in the Borough ? Dr
■ — Yes.
975. Being author of an Essay, intituled "The Use of the Dead to the Living," and
having attentively considered the subject which the Committee is appointed to inquire
into, do you wish to state any thing for the information of the Committee ? — I
wish to state to the Committee the strong impression upon my mind of the danger
of an opinion which I have heard expressed, namely, that dissection is not necessary
to the general practitioner, who occupies the lowest rank in the profession, and to the
physician who occupies the highest. The Apothecaries Company does not require
testimonials of dissection ; no college of physicians in Britain, as far as I know,
requires any testimonial that the candidates who come before them have dissected ;
they require that they should have attended lectures on Anatomy, but I am not
aware that they require that they should have actually dissected. Now that know-
ledge of Anatomy which is essential to every practitioner, can be acquired only by
dissection. I feel that no language at my command can adequately express my
conviction of this truth. To every practitioner, the lowest as well as the highest,
there must sometimes occur cases in which his power to save life depends, I must
repeat, on that knowledge of Anatomy which dissection alone can give. I have
myself known many painful, and some fatal consequences, resulting from the want of
this knowledge. My attention was first awakened to this subject, and I was
induced to endeavour to direct the public attention to it, in consequence of my
having met in practice with more than one fatal event, from the ignorance of
Anatomy on the part of the practitioner.
976. Will you state what you consider an adequate number of subjects, for a student
in Anatomy, who intends to practise surgery, to have dissected? — I should be
guided rather by the opinion of the Anatomists, whom I number among my friends,
than by my own experience; but as far as I can judge from their testimony,
I should say not less than three.
977. Three in the whole course of his studies? — No ; three in a year.
978. Then how many in the whole course of his anatomical studies ? — I should
think nine or ten.
979. Do you not consider that for the student in surgery the number should not
only be adequate to teach him the structure and functions of the healthy body, but
also fully adequate to enable him to perform upon the dead body those leading opera-
tions which he may be required to perform on the living? — Certainly.
980. If security were given by the surgeon that bodies after dissection should re-
ceive decent funeral rites and interment, do you see any objection to the bodies of those
who die in workhouses and parish infirmaries, and are unclaimed by relatives, being
given up for dissection ? — I see none whatever ; on the contrary it appears to me,
368. L 3 from
Southwoud Smith.
v.
5 May
86 MINUTES OF EVIDENCE TAKEN BEFORE
Dr. o _ t from the best attention I have been able to pay to the subject, that that is the proper
remedy for the great evils which prevail at present ; I think it tlie proper remedy,
because it appears to me to be perfectly simple in itself and quite adequate.
981. Do you think that the dislike of the public to dissection is at all aggravated by
the bodies of murderers being given up for dissection ? — I feel quite certain that it is
very much aggravated.
982. And if it were proposed to extend it to the bodies of other criminals, you
think the public feeling would be rendered still more inveterate against dissection ?—
I think it would : at the same time it has occurred to me, that it might be worth
while to ascertain officially the number of convicts which die annually throughout
the kingdom, because there would not be the same objection to appropriate to
dissection the bodies of those who die a natural death in the prisons and the hulks.
Even this however might operate unfavourably on the public mind, by continuing to
associate the ideas of disgrace and crime with dissection. It is therefore a measure
which I would not recommend, unless it should appear that the supply from these
sources would be very considerable, and that an adequate supply could be obtained
by no better mode.
983. Do you wish to add in any point to your evidence? — There is one point
which I wish to say a word about ; I think we cannot pay too much deference to the
feelings of the poor, indeed of all classes ; but from what I have observed, I should
infer that these feelings are neither so strong nor so difficult to be removed as is
commonly imagined : I form this opinion from what I have observed in the
analogous case of inspecting the body after death. When I first began to practise
in London, I became attached to one of the principal dispensaries ; often there
was a very great objection in the minds of the friends of those who died, to allow
an examination after death ; but I found that by reasoning with the poor, and
explaining to them the importance of such inspection, I could generally succeed
in obtaining their consent; ultimately I found very little difficulty, and it was
always greatly lessened by allowing the friends to be present. I observed that they
attended to what was going on with great calmness and interest ; I recollect no
instance of a relative or friend having been present at such an examination, who did not
become convinced by it of its usefulness and importance ; and in very many
instances I went away, receiving the warmest thanks of the people for what I had
done. 1 may state that the same result has been obtained at the London Fever
Hospital ; I am one of the physicians to the London Fever Hospital ; in that
institution a considerable number of persons die annually ; it had been the rule
never to examine any one there without the consent of friends ; we hardly ever meet
with any difficulty, and when any objection does exist, it can generally be removed
by reasoning the matter with the friends that come to claim the dead. The Irish,
of whom there is always a great number in the hospital, must be excepted. We
have hitherto not been able to make any impression upon them ; latterly, however,
we have examined the bodies of all the Irish that have died, without consent ;
there was some clamour at first ; it is now a good deal subsided ; and I wish parti-
cularly to direct the attention of the Committee to the fact, that although it is now
known to these people that the body is invariably examined after death, it has not
had the least effect in deterring them from entering the hospital.
984. Are the Committee to collect from your answer, that you think a mistake is
made in behaving towards the public with secrecy and mystery upon this subject; and
that you think much may be done by taking proper pains and precaution, and by
reasoning with them on the use of dissection ? — I think so; I think, in the state of
mind at present prevailing in the British public, the poorer classes are as much open
to conviction as those above them, and perhaps more so ; that they are quite able
to perceive the reasonableness of the measure if it were properly represented ; and
that their feeling is so good, that they would ultimately acquiesce in it.
985. Do you think the strongest feeling against dissection is to be found in the
poorer, the middle, or the richer classes ? — I think the strongest feeling is in the
middle classes ; at least it has happened to me, that I have had the greatest difficulty
in examining bodies after death in the lower part of the middle scale, than in the
richer or poorer classes.
986. Are not the middle and the poorer classes those chiefly interested in ren-
dering a good surgical education cheap, and easily to be obtained? — Certainly;
because the rich can always procure the best assistance.
987. When dissections take place in a school, is the examination conducted with
decorum,
5 May
i3a8.
SELECT COMMITTEE ON ANATOMY. 87
decorum, and is all indelicacy and levity discountenanced amongst the studtnts ? — • Dr.
In general I think it is, very much so; and I think more so than it was. South-wood Smith.
988. What portion of anatomical knowledge do you think it would be desirable
for a general practitioner or apothecary in the country to possess? — I think he should
be minutely acquainted with the situation and connexions of all the important organs ;
that he should be so far acquainted with their structure, as to be able to distinguish
the healthy from the diseased structure ; and that he should be acquainted with the
situation and relations of all the different vessels. Thus much at least is indispen-
sable to the salvation of life, in cases which must often come before him.
989. Is not the general practitioner in the country daily liable to be called upon
to perform on a sudden the most difficult operations in surgery ? — Certainly.
990. Then you would say also, it is not only desirable that he should know the
structure of the human body, but that he should be capable of performing
operations of surgery ? — If he be not so, the loss of life must often be the
consequence.
99 1 . What degree of anatomical study is necessary to give that degree of knowledge,
namely, not only an acquaintance with the structure of the human body, but the
skill to perform surgical operations? — 1 should think that it would be requisite that
every practitioner, every one who is allowed to practise, should perform at the very
least one half of the dissections which I have before stated to be desirable.
992. The ignorance of practitioners produces unnecessary sufferings and death? —
In many more cases than is commonly understood, it is the occasion of protracted
suffering and loss of life.
993. Are you of opinion, in point of fact, that if a facility of supplv could be ob-
tained, the degree of science in the lower order of practitioners would be very much
increased ? — I think it would be very materially increased.
Luna, 12° die Maij, 1828.
John IVatson, Esq. called in ; and Examined.
994. ARE you Secretary to the Court of Examiners of the Society of Apothe-
caries?— Yes.
995. The Committee understand that the Apothecaries Company are desirous
to give some explanation, why it is that they do not require the persons who pass
examination, actually to have dissected ? — Yes.
996. Will you give that explanation ? — Yes ; by an Act of Parliament passed in
the 53d Geo. 3. all persons who set themselves down in practice as apothecaries, or
as general practitioners, throughout the kingdom, are required to pass an examination
at the Court of Examiners of the Apothecaries Company, and no person can prac-
tise, without having previously been examined there : the Court of Examiners were
therefore desirous not to throw any obstruction in the way of persons about to be
examined before that court, because, by the law of the land, as it at present stands,
dissections cannot legally take place ; so that the court do not require persons to
subject themselves to the penalties of a misdemeanor, in order to comply with the
provisions of this Act of Parliament.
997. Since when have the Apothecaries Company been aware that the dissection of
a body, not being that of a murderer, was a misdemeanor? — They have always had
the idea that they could not legally call upon persons to do that ; and in the outset
of the present system they were not aware whether they could examine persons in
Anatomy.
998. Then the Committee are to understand, from your explanation, that if the
legal impediments to dissection were removed, the Apothecaries Company would
require, as a part of the qualification of the candidates for a diploma, that they should
actually have dissected ? — I have no doubt the Court of Examiners would require
such a thing to be done.
999. Do you wish to deliver in any paper upon the subject ? — This paper, which
is signed by the Chairman of the Court of Examiners, I am desired to deliver in.
[The Paper referred to was delivered in by the Witness, and read by the
Chairman, as follows :~[
The Regulations of the Court of Examiners of the Society of Apothecaries having
been, by order of the Anatomical Committee of the Honourable House of Commons,
568. L 4 laid
88 MINUTES OF EVIDENCE TAKEN BEFORE
laid before them, the Court is desirous to explain the reason why those regulations do
not require certificates of dissection, as well as lectures on Anatomy.
\iy the 14th section of the Apothecaries Act, the Court are authorized and required
to examine all persons intending to practise as apothecaries, " for the purpose of ascer-
taining their skill and abilities in the science and practice of medicine, and their fitness
and qualification to practise as apothecaries."
In the discharge of this duty the Court have deemed it incumbent upon them to
require a knowledge of Anatomy as necessary to the science and practice of medicine;
and they arc fully aware how important dissection is to the attainment of anatomical
knowledge; but they have not expressly required testimonials of dissection, because,
as no person can practise as an apothecary without obtaining a certificate from the
Court, it appeared improper to demand of candidates, as a qualification for such cer-
tificate, the performance of an act, which, under the existing difficulty of procuring
subjects, would often be impracticable, and which, if practicable, might, as the law
now stands, render the party liable to the penalties of a misdemeanor.
The Court of Examiners are therefore desirous that the difficulties and dangers
which at present impede the study of Anatomy should be removed, because it is their
opinion, that without a knowledge of Anatomy, medical students cannot obtain that
" skill and ability in the science and practice of medicine," and that " fitness and quali-
fication to practise as apothecaries," which the Act of Parliament requires.
(signed) J. P. Fallofield, Chairman of the Court of Examiners.
Apothecaries Hall, May 10th, 1828.
For further 1000. Is there any farther explanation you wish to give ? — There is only one point
Evidence of which I wished to explain ; that is, what is required of an apothecary by this Act of
Mr. Watson, Parliament, that he should be skilled in the science and practice of medicine ; and
N"2o. it *s uPon that point that the Court of Examiners have laid down their course of
examination, and the course of studv for the candidates who come before them.
Esq.
Benjamin Harrison, Esq. called in ; and Examined.
Benjamin Harrison, PREVIOUS to his examination, the witness submitted, that in his peculiar situa-
tion, he ought not to be examined by the Committee ; being informed by the Chairman,
that he would be allowed to state his objections to any question at the time of its being
put, he delivered in the following paper, as an order issued at Guy's Hospital, on or
about Friday, May gth, 1828.
" Hitherto, however minute may have been the inspection and examination of persons
after death at Guy's Hospital, it has been so conducted as not to have produced any in-
convenience or unpleasant feelings on the part of the patients or the public, but publicity
and misrepresentation will, of necessity, occasion so much excitement, that it is deemed
expedient to direct that no such examinations shall, in future, be permitted."
1001. You are the treasurer of Guy's Hospital ? — Yes.
1002. Will you state to the Committee, what it was that occasioned the governors
to issue that order on Friday, May 9th? — It was not issued by the governors; it
was issued by the treasurer.
1003. By yourself ? — Yes.
1 004. What was it that occasioned you particularly, on Friday, May 9th, to issue
that order ? — 1 think it is described in the order itself. It states, that publicity occa-
sioned by circumstances being known, and particulars relating to the hospital, which
have been brought before this Committee.
1005. Was it particularly represented to the treasurer by the surgeons and lec-
turers, or any other persons connected with the hospital, that there did exist, parti-
cularly at this time, much excitement on the part of the public ? — It was from the
publicity given to these proceedings, and from the evidence that has been given.
1 006. The Committee probably need not ask you, who have been so long the
treasurer of Guy's Hospital, and a very influential officer there, whether you think
it of importance to the public, and to the education of medical and surgical men,
that dissections should be carried on ? — I think it highly important.
1 007. The Committee understand that it was with such feelings, the governors,
not very long since, attached to the building of Guy's Hospital, a new dissecting
school ? — It was not erected at the expense of the hospital.
1 008. At who.se expense was it erected ? — It has been paid for in part, and is
intended to be wholly so, out of the profits of the surgical school.
1009. Do you mean, that a certain portion was taken out of the fees usually
received by the physicians and surgeons, to raise that fund ? — It was paid out of the
surgeons pupil fund.
1010. How long ago is it since the new dissecting room at Guy's Hospital was
built?— It was first occupied in October 1825.
101 1. Do
SELECT COMMITTEE ON ANATOMY. 89
1011. Do the lecturers who now lecture at Guy's Hospital, receive the same Benjamin Harriton,
portion of the fees as they did before the new dissecting room was built ? — There Esq.
were then no anatomical or surgical lectures, and now those receipts all go into one ' ^
fund, subject to the deductions which the governors may, from time to time, deem 128Mgy
expedient.
101 2. Was there any dissecting room at Guy's Hospital, before the new dissect-
ing room was built? — There was an inspection room.
1013. Did dissections go on in the inspection room? — By special permission.
1014. Were lectures given by the lecturers upon the bodies examined in the in-
spection room ? — No.
101.5. Was there a connexion between Guy's and St. Thomas's Hospitals, which
occasioned Saint Thomas's to be the place where lectures were given on dissection ?
— The anatomical and surgical lectures were, previous to the erection of the new
buildings, given at Saint Thomas's Hospital.
101 6. Were lectures, with or without dissection, given at Guy's Hospital, with or
without permission of the governors, previous to the erection of the new dissecting
room ? — There were no anatomical or surgical lectures given at Guy's Hospital at
all.
1017. Were any lectures given? — Very many lectures, but not upon anatomy
and surgery.
1018. What were the lectures given at Guy's Hospital, surgical, anatomical, or
medical, previous to the erection of the new dissecting room ? — There was a full
course of lectures upon every thing that was considered necessary for the instruction
of medical and surgical students, combined with the lectures which were given at
Saint Thomas's.
1019. Will you state what were the lectures? — I am not fully prepared to answer
that question ; there are Materia Medica, Practice of Physic, Physiology, Mid-
wifery, Chemistry, Botany, Experimental Philosophy, and others.
1020. Were any anatomical lectures then given at Guy's Hospital? — None.
021. The schools of St. Thomas's and Guy's were then united ? — They were.
1022. Have they been separated since the erection of the new dissecting room? —
Not so far as to prevent the surgeons pupils of the one having the opportunity of
visiting the other.
1023. Are the pupils who walk one hospital, entitled to walk the other also? —
Certainly.
1 024. For the same fee ? - Certainly.
1025. What are the fees which are now paid at Guy's Hospital by the pupils to
the anatomical and surgical lecturers? — I have not the particulars with me; I do not
recollect the amount.
1026. Has the lecturer at Guy's Hospital, in the use of the dissecting room, any
peculiar advantages which the lecturer at private schools of dissection has not; had
he in the year 1827? — I should conceive, with respect to the portion of the expenses
that are paid towards the assistance that is afforded, much less is paid for rent and
other charges than in other situations.
1027. The question relates principally as to whether he receives the use of the
dissecting room without paying to the hospital any rent for it? — He pays a certain
sum, but it is not defined whether it is for rent or for the expenses that are
incurred.
1028. Do you mean, as treasurer, that the whole accounts are blended together,
and there is no separation ? — I mean to say that account has nothing to do >vith the
accounts of the hospital.
1 029. Do the lecturers pay a consideration for the use of the dissecting room ? —
They do.
1 030. Do the fees given to the lecturer pass through the hands of the treasurer ? —
They are paid into the steward's hands, and subject certainly to the control of the
treasurer; the whole of the pupils fund is paid into the steward's hands, and is also
subject to the control of the treasurer.
1031. Then the treasurer is acquainted with the amount of the fees paid to the
lecturer? — The printed paper of lectures will explain that ; there are certain fees paid
for each course and by perpetual pupils.
1032. In whose custody are the account books of the institution, and who are
responsible for their production? — The treasurer.
1033. Is there any printed statement of the fees?— There is.
M 1034. Is
12 May
1828.
90 MINUTES OF EVIDENCE TAKEN BEFORE
Benjamin Harrison, 1034. Is the dissecting room, built within the last two years, part of the insti-
v ^s1j tution of Guy's Hospital ? — It is.
1035. How then since you, the treasurer, are responsible for the account books
belonging to the institution, does it happen that the accounts of any part of that
institution are not in your hands, and you are not responsible for them ? — The
accounts of the hospital, and the accounts of the lecturers are kept quite distinct.
1036. But you, being responsible for the accounts of the whole institution, and
the dissecting room being part of the institution, whether the accounts be mingled or
separate, are you not responsible for the accounts of the dissecting room ? — The
accounts of the dissecting room are kept by the steward.
1037. Are they not submitted to you ? — They are.
1038. Can you produce them? — They could be produced if requisite.
1039. The whole of the fees received from the students go into a separate fund
and not to the hospital, and separate accounts are kept? — Certainly.
1040. All the lecturers and medical men are paid out of that fee fund, are they
not? — The lecturers are paid out of the lecture account, and the surgeons are paid
out of the pupil account.
1041. Certain fees are received for the pupils walking the hospital; does that
form a separate account from the fund resulting from the fees received from the
dissecting pupils? — Every distinct lecture is kept under a separate head.
1042. Are the whole of the fees received for each particular lecture paid in full
to the lecturer, or is any deduction made for the use of the hospital ? — Certain
deductions are to be made at the discretion of the treasurer, for what he may
consider the expense incurred by each.
1043. Then it will appear distinctly from the accounts kept with regard to the
dissecting room, what proportion of the fees it is that is received by the lecturer? —
Yes.
1044. Is it the case that no patient is admitted at Guy's Hospital, unless his
friends previously give security that they will pay the expense of interment ?— That
is not the case.
1045. Is not a fee deposited ? — No.
1046. Not a fee of a guinea ? — No.
1047. Is there no security given before the patient is admitted at Guv's Hospital,
whatever may be the object of that security ?— When a patient is admitted, it is an
object to know who will take the patient on being discharged ; and for that purpose,
security is endeavoured to be obtained ; if the patient dies and is buried by the
hospital, one pound is demanded from the security.
1048. Upon adding the new dissecting room to Guy's Hospital, was there any
diminution in the number of applicants for admission into the hospital ? — I should
say, there has been an increased number of applicants.
1049. Was it known to the public in the neighbourhood that there was a dis-
secting establishment lately attached to the hospital ? — Perfectly ; it is so large and
conspicuous a building, that it must be known.
1050. Then it appears that the knowledge of dissection being carried on, did not
indispose sick persons or their relatives to apply to that hospital for relief? —
The anatomical school is not within the walls ; the inspection room is within the
walls.
1051. At what distance is the anatomical school from the walls ? — It is within an
outward boundary, not where the patients have access.
1 052. At what distance ? — It is within two hundred or three hundred yards of the
hospital.
1053. Was it ever matter of doubt in the neighbourhood that it was an establish-
ment intimately connected with the hospital itself? — It was a matter of so much
public notoriety, that I should consider it was not even a matter of doubt.
1 054. Then it appears that the knowledge of dissections going on in an esta-
blishment intimately connected with the hospital, did not deter patients from fre-
quenting the hospital ? — Certainly not.
1055. Does not that lead you to conceive that the repugnance to dissection, which
is supposed to exist, may in some measure have been exaggerated by those who
entertain fears of publicity? — I am quite sure that if patients, admitted into the
hospital, were to consider that they would be dissected, it would have a very material
effect ; but by good management and great caution being exercised, inspections are
every day more readily permitted.
1056. You
SELECT COMMITTEE ON ANATOMY. 91
1056. You have no interest yourself in any of the lectures at the hospital? — None Benjamin Harrison,
whatever; my services are perfectly gratuitous, and have been so ever since
I belonged to the institution, about forty years.
1057. Do you think the repugnance to dissection which exists in the minds of the
patients that have come to the hospital, is connected in any way with the penal
law, which subjects the body of a murderer to dissection? — I do not consider it is
on account of murderers being dissected that they abhor it themselves.
1058. Have you thought of ascertaining what is the cause of the repugnance, and
whether the penal law referred to is not one of the operative causes upon the
public mind? — I believe not; I believe it is the national character, and I believe
it to be a very general feeling of abhorrence, which we all feel more or less, and
if it could be banished from the minds of the poor, much of their best feelings
would be banished with it.
1059. Does that apply to the individual or to the relatives? — To both.
1 060. Do you not think if any difficulties or impediments are thrown in the way of
obtaining subjects for dissection, that the teachers in the private schools would
be greater sufferers than the teachers in the public schools attached to large
hospitals ?— I have no means of knowing.
1 061 . Do you not think that the surgeons in the schools attached to large hospitals,
who are at less expense in the supporting those schools than the lecturers at private
schools, are better able than those lecturers to bear the expense of purchasing subjects,
when the impediments are so very great? — Not being acquainted or connected
with those schools, I know nothing about them.
106a. Have you reason to know that the teachers of private schools have, within
the last few years, found so much difficulty in obtaining subjects, that many of
them have been obliged to retire from teaching? — No, I do not; only from general
report.
1 063. If exhumation was still further discouraged, and, under strict and proper regu-
lations, the rule were general in all hospitals, that persons dying there and unclaimed,
should be dissected, are you of opinion that the number of applicants for admission
into such hospitals generally would be much diminished ? — I have no hesitation in
saying that it would be the most injurious thing that could be to the public hospitals.
1 064. Is it your opinion that the number of applicants for admission to those
hospitals generally would be much diminished? — I think decidedly so; more
especially with the superior order of artificers.
1065. Safeguards and regulations have been suggested, confining dissection to
such bodies as might not be claimed within hours after death ; if such a re-
gulation were strictly enforced, it would not apply to artificers and persons who have
relatives to claim their bodies after death ; subject to those regulations, do you think
the number of applicants would be diminished by their being dissected? — Certainly;
because their friends might not hear of their death till after they had been dissected.
1066. But as you do not receive all the applicants, would not there be a sufficient
number for reception in the hospital? — Certainly.
1067. If there was a general rule in all hospitals whatever in London, that bodies
unclaimed by friends or relations should be given up for dissection, do you think,
as all hospitals would then be upon an equal footing, that they would cease to be
frequented by patients ? — I am decidedly of opinion that they would not be deserted
by patients altogether, but by the description of patients who are perhaps the most
important to be admitted, and to save their families from pauperism.
1068. Do you advert particularly to that part of the question which states, that
merely bodies unclaimed by friends or relatives should be given up for dissection ? —
I know not at what period you can consider a body unclaimed ; those whose friends
live in the country may not hear of their deaths till several days after, and they may
be cases in which there may be the greatest objection.
100*9. What proportion of the persons admitted into Guy's Hospital consist of
patients coming from the country ? — I have no means of knowing.
1070. Is it a large or a small proportion ? — I do not know.
1071. Can you not state whether there are more or less town patients than country
patients in the hospital? — I have no means of knowing ; they merely come before me
with a petition to be admitted ; if I were to judge from their dress and appearance,
I should say the greater proportion of them are from London.
1072. Can you draw any distinction of a class having a superior claim to admis-
sion into a charitable institution, other than the greater extent of human suffering
568 M 2 requiring
92 MINUTES OF EVIDENCE TAKEN 13EFORE
requiring aid? — That is the rule by which we judge of the most urgent cases ; we
never attend to any recommendation from any quarter.
1 073. The greatest poverty, suffering under an equal degree of disease, would have
the greatest claim for admission into your institution ? — The nature of the admission
of the patient is such, that it is impossible to inquire into the comparative poverty
of the individuals ; it is as much as can be done during the time that is allowed, to
select them from the urgency of the disease alone.
1074. But in the case of the number of applicants being greater than your means
of admission will allow you to receive, if the urgency of the disease be equal, the
poorer they are, the greater objects they are of the charity ? — If the urgency of the
disease is equal, they are referred to the medical officer to determine to which he
is most likely to afford relief.
1075. And if the applicants of a higher order were entirely cut off, inasmuch as
the whole number of applicants is now redundant, would not the purposes of the
charity be carried into effect, were patients only of the poorer order admitted into
your institution? — I have before said, that patients are admitted without any exact
reference to their poverty ; and that I should think, if the artificers were excluded,
the most important object of the charity would be defeated, inasmuch as the inferior
description of the poorer classes have their parishes to resort to, where they may
have relief offered to them.
107G. Can you state to the Committee the average number of deaths in Guy's
Appendix, N° 16. j^0Spital in a year ?— We admit about 2,800, of which I should say about 300 die
in a year.
1077. Can you state what proportion of those who die in the hospital, are buried
at the expense of their friends? — I have not any document with me that will shew
this.
1078. Can you state to the Committee what proportion there is of the persons
dying at Guy's Hospital, who are unclaimed, and who apparently have no friends or
relatives in London? — I do not know the number, but there may be about 40 in a
year.
1079. Suppose the artificers were deterred by the fear of dissection from coming
to this hospital, would the number of cases of urgency and of persons in the ex-
tremity of disease, be sufficient to claim all the accommodation you afford? — When
I said artificers, I did not mean to confine it to those, but to exclude persons who
receive parish relief.
io8o, Putting them aside, would there be a sufficient number of cases of urgent
disease, to claim all the accommodation you can afford ? — I should say, if the hospital
were three times as large, it would be always filled.
1081. Would it be filled with cases of extreme urgency? — No, certainly not; we
take in a large proportion of the very urgent cases.
1082. You have stated, that you think a law would be objectionable, which
directed that the governors of hospitals should give up the bodies of patients who
die and are unclaimed? — Most assuredly.
1083. Do you think it would be equally objectionable if the law were made gene-
ral, so as not to distinguish hospitals or public establishments, but to permit
bodies to be given up for the purpose of anatomical inquiry by the next of kin ? — If
the hospitals were only subject to the same law to which persons were subject, no
prejudice could arise. If we were all made liable, a given number being required, we
must each cast in our lot.
1084. If there was a general permissive law, authorising the next of kin to give
up the body of his relative if he thought proper to do so, it would not affect your
hospital ? — Not if it affected persons out of the hospital equally.
1085. If that permissive law were to affect those persons only who are main-
tained in workhouses at the public expense, and at their death were unclaimed by
their relatives, so that their bodies, instead of being buried at the public expense,
were as a matter of course to be transferred to the dissecting school, do you think
the law would increase the prejudice against dissection? — It would increase the
prejudice with those who must expect to end their days in a workhouse, inasmuch
as the difficulty would be increased from the disgraceful traffic which would ensue
to the persons claiming to be entitled to the bodies.
1086. If all bodies given up for dissection were buried, and should receive funeral
rites after the examination has taken place, do you think that would mitigate the
prejudice p
SELECT COMMITTEE ON ANATOMY. 93
prejudice? — I cannot contemplate bodies being given up as proposed, or have an Benjamin Harrison,
opinion if funeral rites could be obtained, or whose property they would become. . *"s^ f
1087. Governors would be the next of kin? — I do not think it would get rid of
the prejudice; I think the present system, bad as it is, would be the less exten- 1\^lly
sively demoralizing of the two.
1 088. What can you say as to the conduct of coroners in encouraging or preventing
the examination of bodies which came under their inspection? — Much prejudice
against the inspection of bodies is occasioned by coroners juries ; for when coroners in-
quests are held at the hospitals, more accurate and scientific reports, as to the imme-
diate cause of death, might naturally be looked for, than on such occurrences in
other situations ; but so far from this being the case, the result of the accident is
frequently only recorded, and the verdict given, without any examination having taken
place to ascertain the nature of the injury, which, when there is no external ap-
pearance, might in the first instance have arisen from a fit, rupture of vessels, or
disease. It is usual with coroners to pass censure, if an examination has taken place.
When the consent is refused for an examination, so far from any assistance being
afforded to them to obtain information so important to the object of inquiry, and of
instruction to the profession, it is usual to encourage and confirm the friends, and
the large number which are assembled on these occasions, in their refusal and ob-
jection to permit any inspection; here the coroner and jury rest satisfied that the
accident occasioned the death, but the nature of the injury remains unexplained.
Esq.
Thomas Halls, Esquire, called in ; and Examined.
1089. YOU are one of the police magistrates for Bow-street ? — Yes. Thomas Halls,
1090. Have you considered the state of the law as it affects persons having pos-
session of dead bodies, whether they are guilty or not of any offence, cognizable by
the law for the mere possession of bodies for the purpose of dissection ? — I shouid
conceive that the mere possession of bodies for the purpose of dissection was not an
offence.
1091. Are you aware of a late trial which took place at Lancaster, and in which
a judge gave it as his opinion, that no bodies were legally liable to dissection, ex-
cept those of murderers ? — I have heard that there was such a case.
1092. What is your opinion of the character of the persons who arc occupied in
raising bodies? — I should think that, from the nature of the occupation, the gene-
rality of them would not be the best characters in the community.
1093. Are there any of them who make the raising of bodies a mere pretence for
carrying on some occupation still more injurious to the community ? — I am not,
of my own knowledge, aware of such a fact, but I should have very little doubt that
it was the case.
1094. Have you, in your situation as magistrate, ever had persons brought before
you pretending to have been removing bodies, but, in fact, who have been removing
stolen goods? — Certainly not.
1095. Have you ever heard of such practices? — I have heard that it has been
done, but cannot name the instances.
1096. What is the sentence which the magistrates feel themselves justified in
passing upon any resurrection men, caught in the act of raising a dead body ? — I am
not aware that it is within the jurisdiction of the magistrates.
1097. Do they not occasionally commit them as rogues? — Certainly not ; when
I say it is not within their jurisdiction, I mean judicially ; at the sessions cer-
tainly they may have jurisdiction.
1098. What is the manner in which the magistrates in London usually deal with
a resurrection man, caught in the act of raising a body? — They would be com-
mitted to take their trial for the misdemeanor.
1099. And if they offered bail, they would be entitled to be bailed? — Yes.
1 100. At the sessions, what is the punishment usually awarded to such an offence ?
— Either imprisonment or a fine.
1101. What is the usual sentence? — That depends upon the circumstances, and
the judgment of the court.
1 102. Has it been considered in London as an offence of which the magistrates
are cognizant, for a surgeon to have possession of a body which has been disin-
terred ? — Certainly not, as far as I know.
1103. Will not the late \erdict at Lancaster, if that shall be found to be good
in law, place the teachers of the dissecting schools in the situation of being liable, if
568. M 3 detected,
94
MINUTES OF EVIDENCE TAKEN BEFORE
Rex v. Davics
and Others,
Appendix, N" 23.
detected, to an indictment for a misdemeanor? — Certainly, if we are to take the
case as reported, that it has been decided that persons having the possession of
bodies for the purpose of dissection, knowing them to have been disinterred, simply,
are guilty of a misdemeanor, it would have that effect ; I have an extract from the
opinion of Mr. Baron Ilullock, in which he states, that " no bodies but those of
murderers are legally liable to be dissected."
1104. You arc aware, probably, of the four last counts in the indictment, upon
which two of the defendants were found guilty ? — Yes, in one of the counts I see the
words " unlawfully procure," which Mould put it into a different shape ; if they
were found guilty upon that count in the indictment, in my opinion, it would give it
a different shape. With respect to unlawfully procuring, there must have been
evidence to show a prior knowledge ; something more than having a body for the
purpose of dissection, knowing it to be stolen.
1 105. The thirteenth count is, " That the said defendants took into their posses-
sion at Warrington, with intent to dissect, the dead body of Jane Fairclough, at that
time knowing the same to have been unlawfully disinterred ;" will not that count, if
the verdict shall stand good, render the greater number of the lecturers and students
in London indictable for a misdemeanor ? — It certainly would.
1 106. Has it been the practice, when any complaints have been made that disin-
terred bodies have been received at the dissecting rooms, for the teachers, on inquiry
being made, to inform the police who are the parties from whom they received the
bodies? — Not to my knowledge; I would wish it to be understood, that the public
office in Bow-street, being situated in the very centre of the town, we have less cases
of misdemeanors of this description brought before us than probably any other police
office in the metropolis ; I have been seven years in the police, and but two instances
have been brought before me in that period.
1 107. Previous to reading the case as submitted to the jury by Mr. Baron
Hullock, should you have felt it your duty to hold to bail a surgeon, accused of
having in his possession for dissection a disinterred body ? — Certainly not, without
some evidence showing that he was a party in the offence of disinterment ; that sort
of evidence which would make him an accomplice in a case of felony, an accessory
before the fact.
1 108. Should you consider it necessary to alter your practice in consequence of
that case, it being a case at nisi prius, and not yet having come under the cognizance
of the court? — I certainly should not; for in the first place it depends upon the
report, which is not in a legal shape at present, and it is impossible for me to know
what circumstances might have appeared in evidence to have induced the judge in
that case to have come to that decision.
1109. Should you have considered the purchase of a body by a surgeon from
a resurrection man, as evidence of his participation in the misdemeanor of raising it ?
— Certainly not ; if I may explain why I should not, it is this ; that the offence being
a misdemeanor, there can be no accessories to a misdemeanor, they must all be
principals. It is different in the case of felony ; for there there may be accessories
before the fact and accessories after the fact ; but in the case of misdemeanor they
must be principals : consequently, unless there is some evidence to connect them
with the act of the misdemeanor, they cannot be considered as principals.
mo. The purchase you should not conceive to be such a connecting link? — Cer-
tainly not.
1111. What is the state of the law with respect to the property of a dead
body ; to whom does it belong ? — I do not know that there is any property in a
dead body.
1112. Some judge has laid down the doctrine that it belongs to nobody? — Yes.
1113. Would the nearest relative not be bound to take care to order the funeral
of a body, the party not dying in the poor-house ? — The executors would be bound,
they having assets in their hands ; and the next of kin might certainly be indictable
for a nuisance, if, by keeping the body disinterred, a nuisance was created.
1 1 14. Would the sale of a body by the next of kin, instead of interment, be'a
misdemeanor? — I take it not.
1115. Is not the state of the law this; that where persons refuse even to administer,
in consequence of the party dying insolvent, that nevertheless they are allowed to
incur and discharge the funeral expenses out of the assets that are left, although not
sufficient to pay the creditors ? — Yes.
1 1 16. Then the law prescribes the interment of a body by the next of kin, or by
those persons into whose possession it may conic by incidental circumstances ? — I can
only
SELECT COMMITTEE ON ANATOMY. y5
only answer that, as I endeavoured to do before ; that if the disinterment of the
body creates a nuisance, the party who is the occasion of its remaining disinterred,
is subject certainly to an indictment as for a nuisance ; and if the executors have
assets in their hands, they of course, from that very circumstance of their being 12 May
indictable for a nuisance, are bound to see the body buried. 1828.
1117. And the creditors can make no claim upon them for that appropriation of
the money to the funeral expenses ? — I should think not.
1118. If no nuisance arises either from the sale or purchase of a body, do
you conceive, as the law now stands, that neither the seller nor the purchaser are
indictable ? — I should think not ; for the misdemeanor is for illegally disinterring,
and until the body is interred, no misdemeanor is created.
1 1 19. Have you known many cases brought before you at Bow-street, of stealing
bodies before interment? — I have never known an instance brought to Bow-street;
I had a suspicion in one case.
1 1 20. Have you heard of such being not unfrequent practices, had recourse to by
the resurrection men, viz. breaking into houses and stealing bodies before burial ? —
I have no doubt that is done.
1121. Are you aware that a strong public feeling exists adverse to the practice of
dissection ? — 1 think it a natural feeling, and such a feeling as must exist in a high
state of civilization.
1122. Do you think that this feeling is in any way connected with that penal statute
which gives up the body of a murderer for dissection ? — I am not aware of that.
1 123. Do you think the repeal of that particular penal statute might tend to mitigate
the feeling that at present exists ? — I know such a notion has been entertained by
many persons, but it is one of which I am exceedingly doubtful.
1 1 24. The repeal of that law could not in any way tend to have a contrary effect,
to the prejudice of anatomical science? — It is a speculative opinion entirely.
1 1 25. There are certain offences, such as murder, and other very heinous ones, the
commission of which is no sooner known, than the magistrates feel themselves
bound to use their utmost exertions to bring the criminals to justice ; is the crime of
disinterment one of those in which they feel themselves called upon to be parti-
cularly zealous and active ? — Certainly not.
1 12G. Is there not a general feeling, that so long as this is the only mode in which
bodies can be obtained for the purpose of dissection, it may be expedient not to
be over vigilant in bringing offenders to justice ? — I feel some difficulty in answering
that question ; unless cases of this kind are brought before us upon strict legal evidence,
we have no authority to interfere.
1 1 27. Has it ever come to your knowledge that the fear of dissection has checked
the crime of murder? — Certainly not.
1 1 28. If the law were made general, so as to allow the next of kin, or those parties
who might be legally possessed of a body, to dispose of it for dissection, do you think
it would not facilitate very much the supply of the different schools, without any pre-
judice to the public feeling? — I have not the least doubt that it would contribute
to the supply, but I very much doubt whether it would not prejudice the public
feeling.
1129. Is it the practice of the magistrates of Bow-street, and the magistrates of
other police offices in London, to grant a search warrant, in case application is made by
relations, to discover a body which has been disinterred ? — I do not know of any in-
stance, and I should certainly think myself such a warrant illegal ; but that there
have been such warrants I believe is undoubtedly the case.
1130. Should you think a police officer was warranted in stopping a dead body
which he did not know to have been disinterred, in its way to a dissecting room ? — ■
If a dead body is visible to a police officer, it is visible to the public, and therefore,
as a public indecency, I think the officer would be doing his duty in stopping it.
1131. Suppose the body not exposed to view, would he be warranted in breaking
open a box, for the purpose of ascertaining whether it contained a dead body, and if it
did, in stopping it ? — I should think he would not be warranted in breaking it open,
and that is an answer to the latter part of the question.
1132. Have you heard that bodies imported into London have been stopped by
order of police magistrates ? — I have heard so, but 1 do not know of any instance to
my own knowledge.
1 1 33. II the law against exhumation were strictly enforced, and it were allowed that
the bodies of all persons dying in hospitals or in workhouses, unclaimed within a given
time after their death, should, as of course, be dissected, and after dissection their
568. M 4 remains
96 MINUTES OF EVIDENCE TAKEN BEFORE
Thomas Halh, remains be decently interred with christian burial, do you think that such a regulation
Ksq. would be revolting to the public sentiment, or no ?— I think to the great majority of
v v- * the public it would be revolting.
1 1 8^8 y ' '34, Do you think the notoriety of such an arrangement being prevalent in the
hospitals, would deter persons suffering under severe maladies from applying for ad-
mission to such hospitals ?— I should think it would, because the persons that are
admitted to hospitals are not certainly the most philosophical class of the community.
1135. Are you of opinion that intense present suffering would not supersede tlie
contingent fear of dissection, in case of death?— It might in many instances, but not
the generality.
1 1 36. But if it were the general rule, and there was no hospital in which that was
not the rule, do you anticipate that in that event the hospitals would be deserted by
patients ? — I do not think they would be deserted by patients ; in time persons
might be reconciled to such a measure.
1137. Extend the same consideration to workhouses ; do you think there would be
no applications for relief within the walls of the workhouses, if it were notorious that
the bodies of individuals dying within its walls would be dissected, unless claimed
by relatives within a time specified?— If the question were confined to their ap-
plying for relief, I should say, probably not ; but I think I may say that it would
so far interfere with the feelings of the community at large, that it would create a
considerable disturbance in their minds, and discontent.
1 138. If the public were to understand that the giving up the bodies of those who
die and are unclaimed would be the means of doing away with the practice of exhuma-
tion, do you not think that the end proposed would go far to reconcile them to the
change ? — I think it might go a considerable way ; but I am now giving opinions upon
a broad scale upon a very serious subject, and upon a subject in which not only the
natural feelings, but the religious feelings of the whole community are involved.
1 139. Do you think the feelings of the public would be altered, if relatives were
allowed voluntarily to give up the bodies, upon receiving a sum of money ? — I know
nothing in the existing state of the law to prevent it, nor do I know of any thin"
in the state of the law to enforce it.
1 140. Do you think it would be prejudicial to the hospitals and the workhouses,
if it were known that the practice was carried on of giving a certain sum of money
to the relatives of persons who have died there ?— I feel sure of this, that if such a
regulation was adopted, more relatives and next of kin would be found afterwards
than ever were found before.
_ 1141. You have stated your opinion that a strong prejudice prevails against the
dissection of persons belonging to this country ; do you think the same feelin« would
be excited if the bodies of foreigners were brought over and dissected ?—Tbe feelings
of the next of kin or their relatives could not be excited ; but with respect to the
public, as I stated before, it is a speculative question, which I am very cautious
in answering ; my feelings upon the question are these, that it has been considered
and is so decided, that the christian religion is part and parcel of the law of this
land, and that every person dying in this country is entitled to christian burial ; and
I think any thing that is a check to that, would certainly create a feeling in the minds
of the community, which would operate in a variety of ways, which I cannot sec
the end of.
1142. But if in every case in which the unclaimed bodies should be subject to dis-
section, security were given by the person dissecting them, that decent burial and
funeral rites should be performed over them, should you not think that that might in
a great measure tend to remove the objections ? — I think it would, if it could pracfically
be done.
1 143. Would it not be in the power of the superintendents of the hospitals and
work-houses to take what security they pleased for the performance of that ceremony '
—It would be in their power to take'it", but whether it would be in the power of the
medical men to give it, is another question.
Samuel Ticyfui'd, Esq. called in ; and Examined.
Samuel Tuy jord, 1 144. YOU are one of the magistrates of Worship-street ?— Yes.
_* , ' H5- Are you able to state to the Committee what is the number of resurrection
men that there are in this metropolis ?— No, my inquiries have not been so extensive ;
my observation applies only to Worship-street office, which is in a populous district'
comprising the parishes of Saint Luke, Bethnal Green, Shoreditch, Christ Church,'
Spitalhekls, Islington, Hackney and several other outlying country parishes.
1146. What
SELECT COMMITTEE ON ANATOMY. 97
• 1 146. What is the number of cases of raising bodies that have been brought before Samiel^Twyford,
you in the last year ? — I have not refreshed my recollection by reference to the office ,
books, but I should think I have had half a dozen cases during the time I have been
at Worship-street, since 1822.
1 147. What can you state generally as to the character of the persons who have
been employed in raising bodies ? — My own personal observation must be confined to
the cases brought before me ; but from inquiry of persons who came on other matters
before me as a magistrate, and from conversation with the officers, and my own ob-
servation and examination of persons who have been brought before me for other
offences, but who have been represented to be resurrection men, my conclusion is,
the character of the acting body-snatcher is most dangerous to society, as well from
being universally infamous and detested, and therefore hardly consistent with any
virtue, as from the representation of the fact from the persons before alluded to.
1 148. Do they make the raising of bodies a pretence for carrying on other illegal
occupations ? — I never knew it to be made a pretence ; but the result of all considera-
tion of the nature of such characters is, that if they fail in obtaining money for disin-
terring bodies, they will have recourse to any other means of supply of funds ;
because, I apprehend, a man throws away all virtue, who throws away all regard for
public opinion ; that is, the opinion of his own caste or rank in society.
1 1 49. Are there not many of them who keep a horse and cart nominally for re-
moving bodies, but who make use of it tor removing stolen goods ? — That is implied
in my last answer; supposing the body-snatcher to have a cart and horse, he would
use them for one purpose as well as the other, at least I should so conjecture ; if the
churchyards were watched, and they were prevented from obtaining bodies, they
would use the cart for other purposes equally injurious to society, though perhaps
less offensive to the feelings of the people.
1 150. Do you know, in the part of the town over which your jurisdiction extends,
what is the number of those who are occupied in raising bodies ? — No ; our observation
as magistrates of police is not so minute as that, nor have we the power of obtaining
that information accurately ; such information might be obtained more directly and
more satisfactorily, because it would most likely be better founded, from, perhaps,
the chief officer of the police office to which the inquiry applies.
1 151. Do you feel yourself called upon as a magistrate, except upon positive in-
formation upon oath, that a resurrection man is in the act of disinterring a body,
to be particularly active in endeavouring to prevent the practice ? — In my view of
the question, and in the district in which I live, knowing, perhaps I may improperly
call it, the just horror against exhumation, and the outrageous violence that follows
the discovery of such practices, I should feel myself compelled, if I had any fair evi-
dence, to proceed to discover and apprehend such persons, of whose plan and
intention I had good evidence.
1 152. Do you feel yourself called upon to prevent the commission of such an
offence ? — Undoubtedly, by all the means in my power ; if I received information that
a particular watchman was bought over (and it is frequently the case), that on such a
time, on such a night, such a churchyard was to be attacked, I should feel it my duty to
take means to prevent it; I have done so more than once on receiving such informa-
tion. I have good reason to believe that one churchyard, in a populous parish in my
district, was for several months the regular resource of a party of resurrection-men, as
they are called, by connivance of the appointed watchman. It was discovered by
the accident of appointing a spare man on watch, who knew nothing ot the plan.
I had great difficulty in preventing a complete exhumation of the churchyard by the
anxious friends.
1153. Do you think it is a frequent case, that persons connected with parish or
other churchyards have an understanding with the persons who raise bodies :— I should
apprehend that few persons of the rank in life of those whose duty it is to look
after churchyards, would withstand temptation long ; I would not set a term to any
man's honesty; but the reward is so great, compared with the wages of such watch-
men, I take it to be impossible to put an end, as the law is at present, to exhumation
in churchyards.
1154. What is there in the state of the law, as it exists at present, that in your
opinion renders it impossible to put a stop to the practice ?— I looked through a title
of Burn's Justice " Bodies dead" yesterday, and it seems to me, from what I could
collect from the cases there enumerated, and the case I have heard to-day of
Mr. Baron Hullock's decision, that it is hardly possible to touch a dead body with,
out committing a misdemeanor, with any view but that of washing it and interring
5b8. N it
12 May
9$ MINUTES OF EVIDENCE TAKEN BEFORE
it decently. The first reported case establishing it to be a misdemeanor to take
away a body from the churchyard, though for the purposes of dissection, was
decided, after argument, before the King's Bench in 1788; it was an offence at
common law and contra bonos mores.
Rex v. Lynn, 1155- That was the first case upon which all subsequent legal decisions have pro-
Appendix, ' ceeded ? — Yes ; but the objection bad never been taken before then ; convictions
N"3i. had constantly taken place for this offence at the Old Bailey.
1 156. That was the case of Lynn ? — Yes.
1 1.57. Are you aware of the case of the King versus Young, in which the master
of a workhouse, a surgeon and another were indicted for preventing the burial of
a person who had died in the workhouse ? — Yes ; that is cited in the Term
Reports in the case of Lynn, and recognized by the court as having settled the
question then before it.
1158. It would therefore at present be illegal in the master of a workhouse to
permit a surgeon to receive a body for dissection ? — I should think it would be a mis-
demeanor. The strongest case upon that point seems to be one which was decided by
Rex v. Cundkk Mr. Baron Graham at Kingston ; a man had been executed, and what was to be done
Appendix, with his body ? It was to be buried decently, and the gaoler, instead of himself taking
N" 22- care to bury it decently, gave it to a man whom he ordered to bury it decently, but
who instead of burying it, sold it ; and that man was indicted for so selling it, and he
was found guilty, and it was said it was a misdemeanor to sell the body ; and it was
not considered necessary to give direct evidence of its being sold for lucre or for dis-
section. A body is not property, for which you can bring an action, but it was said
in that case the sale was a misdemeanor.
1 159. You consider it would be a misdemeanor in executors to give up a body to
be dissected before burial ? — I should think it was, from the cases that have been de-
cided. The principle of the cases seems to me to be, that it is contra bonos mores,
and hurtful to the interests of the public, as being contrary to their moral feelings
to treat dead bodies as subjects of any thing but funeral rites and interment.
1 1 60. If a person bequeathed his body to a surgeon for dissection, do you consider
it would still be a misdemeanor on the part of the executors to give up that body to
the surgeon ? — No property being involved in it, I see nothing to protect the surgeon
or executor from the application of the principle which seems to have governed the
decided cases.
1 id. Upon the same principle you would say, if a man, before death, sold his
body to another, the person purchasing the body, and receiving it afterwards for the
purposes of dissection, would be guilty of misdemeanor ? — I am not sure that I am
right in extending the application of the principle so far as I have done, but I do
not see how that could be got over, consistently with the other cases ; for it seems as
objectionable as the other cases, upon this principle.
1 1 62. You are fully impressed with the importance of dissection for the purpose of
giving anatomical knowledge to medical and surgical men? — Certainly ; nobody can
deny that it is absolutely necessary.
1163. Nevertheless, you consider it your duty as a magistrate, knowing the cha-
racter of the men concerned in exhumation, to do your utmost to put a stop to the
practice ? — I feel it my duty to put a stop to it, notwithstanding the injury that may
result to the science of Anatomy ; that is, to put a stop to the practice of exhumation,
and I should take it to be my duty to put a stop to sales of bodies.
1164. Should you feel yourself entitled, if you heard a disinterred body had been
carried to a dissecting room, to issue a search warrant to ascertain whether that was
so or not? — It would depend upon the mode in which I was pressed to do so; per-
haps I should not issue a search warrant, but a warrant to apprehend some party to
a misdemeanor.
1165. Suppose you were pressed to the utmost by the relations ? — Then I should
ask for some evidence to show how the body got there ; I should ask, has the body
been disinterred ? what evidence have you to show the body was buried in such
and such a place, and has been disinterred ? and if they had evidence of that,
I should go on to inquire, what evidence they had that the body was then in the
particular place mentioned ; and if they said they saw it there lately, or had some
sure evidence of it, I do not say that I should grant a search warrant, but I would
send an officer; I would take every measure to unravel the misdemeanor, short of
rendering myself liable to an action by granting a search warrant. From my own
feeling, I should not do it, because in some dispositions of mind I might think the
feelings
SELECT COMMITTEE ON ANATOMY.
yy
feelings of the relatives should be sacrificed to the public benefit ; but a magistrate
should have respect to the law, and not his private opinion.
1 1 66. In fact, if inquiries are made by the police officers at any dissecting rooms,
whether they know any thing of the body of an individual, are the dissecting esta-
blishments backward in communicating what they know upon the subject ? — I never
heard of such a case as those questions being put to dissecting establishments.
1167. Are you of opinion with Mr. Halls, that a purchase, on the part of the
surgeon, of a body that has been disinterred, does not connect that surgeon purchasing
with the misdemeanor of disinterment? — I cannot universally agree with my friend,
Mr. Halls, in that matter ; 1 am of opinion, that very slight evidence would convict
the surgeon, and that it is not necessary that he should be actually present at the
time of disinterment, in order to render him liable to, at least, accusation ; for
every body who has any thing to do with the transaction, is principal in the mis-
demeanor.
1168. Should you consider the naked fact of the purchase by a surgeon from the
party who has disinterred the body, sufficient evidence to connect him with the disin-
terment?— I am not aware how far the case decided before Mr. Baron Hullock goes,
but I should think the surgeonin such a case, would be called upon to clear himself
by some evidence against the natural inference ; if evidence on part of the prosecution
were brought to show he bought it of A. B. or C. D., who dug it out of the ground,
I should think such a case would be suffered to go to a jury, upon the circumstances.
1169. Even although the party purchasing had no knowledge of the fact of dis-
interment?— I should collect that knowledge "from the other circumstances, if strong
enough to justify the inference.
1 1 70. Do you agree with Mr. Halls in opinion, that under the law as it now stands,
there is no impediment to the next of kin legally selling the body of his relative? — I
should think it was a misdemeanor, as the tendency of the judges opinions is to be
collected. One does not see how consistently with the cases, the next of kin could
sell such a dead body, without offending against the law.
1171. Has not the law treated the disinterment as the corpus delicti ? — Not always,
I think ; for the case I mentioned, was for the sale, when the court ordered the
executed body to be interred, and it was sold by an intervening person, and that was
considered a misdemeanor ; and the case of Young and others, was for a conspiracy
to prevent burial.
1172. That was a sale by a person not related to the deceased individual? —
As there is no property in the body, that would not seem to have any connexion with
the principle.
1 173. Has it been distinctly ruled, that there is no property in the body ?— I be-
lieve so. It is treated by the authorities cited in Burn's Justice, as very old law,
that there is no property in a body.
1 174. Do you think, if the crime of exhumation could be prevented altogether,
that the people would be more reconciled to the law which permitted the sale and
bequest of bodies? — I should think they would ; they would not at first, but the
magistrates and other persons would take pains to show the advantages to public
decency, by totally preventing exhumation, and allowing other means of procuring
bodies, without offence to public decency ; without offending contra bonos mores, and
such means, I think, might be invented.
1 1 75. Do not you think the regulation of all bodies, applied to the purposes of
Anatomy, being buried with funeral rites, would tend to remove the prejudice ? —
Certainly, it would remove in my mind, one very great difficulty and objection.
1176. Being strongly impressed with the importance of dissection, do you not think
some other means than that of exhumation should be employed for procuring subjects?
—Certainly ; I have sometimes wondered at complaints of smuggling and poaching
being the causes of crimes of much greater enormity, whilst exhumation, and those
who live by it, seemed to escape notice.
1177. If it were rendered more highly penal to disinter bodies, and if the bodies of
persons dying in hospitals and workhouses, were transferred to the dissecting room,
provided they were unclaimed by their friends within a given time, and if after dissec-
tion their remains were interred with decent rites, would the public feeling be hostile
to such regulation ? — I do not believe it would; it might for a time, but 1 do not be-
lieve any person cares for a body being dissected, if it be not his own relation, and
his mind be not drawn by some circumstance, to dwell upon the fact in detail ; they
would object to digging up in an open place, as dead bodies are now necessarily
564. N 2
Rex r. Cundick,
exhumed
ioo MINUTES OI- EVIDENCE TAKEN BEFORE
Samuel Tm/ford, exhumed, but nobody cares whether A. B. is dissected, if it is not brought before
ts(l- _j his eyes by some unnecessary exposure or indecency.
117S. Then are you of opinion, that subject to the regulations which have been
1 1828* stated, of the funeral rites being performed, and an opportunity given to the relations
to claim the body, that it would be any outrage upon the feelings of the public ? —
No ; I think regulations might be made so as to prevent the feelings of the people
being outraged.
1179. If the doing away with exhumation were to be the concomitant of any
new plan for obtaining a supply of bodies, do you not think that would tend strongly
to reconcile the public mind to the change? — Certainly; it is a choice between
two evils ; it is not difficult to show, that the present evil of exhumation, as now
obliged to be conducted, is the greater.
1 1 80. Are you, as a magistrate, of opinion, that the circumstance of dissection,
constituting a part of the punishment of murder, has any effect in deterrring the
person who meditates perpetrating that crime, from committing it? — None whatever,
I should think.
1181. Such a case has never come to your knowledge ? — It cannot be asked as a
question of knowledge, but as a matter of speculation : from consideration of the
motives of human actions, I should think it made no difference upon the man
meditating the crime of murder.
1182. Should you not suppose the taking away that part of the punishment,
would have the effect of reconciling, in a considerable degree, the public feeling upon
the subject ? —I think the abrogation of the consequence which attaches to making
it a part of an ignominious punishment, would be beneficial in reconciling public feel-
ing to such proposed change ; as it forms an ingredient, perhaps the most reasonable
of any, in the prejudice against submitting even one's own body to the anatomist, for
the benefit of the public.
1183. You have stated, that in your opinion, the public have no feeling hostile to
dissection, except when it is brought home to them individually, by dissections taking
place on the body of a relation ; how then do you account for the general feeling
against exhumation ? — Because that of itself is an outrage, and is brought under the
eyes of every body in a most revolting and disgusting manner. It is besides public
(when the discovery takes place), and few people like to be thought to have no regard
for their deceased friends. Sometimes, too, it may perhaps be the subject of vulgar
reproach.
1 1 84. Then your opinion is, that though the general feeling is against dissection,
independent of being brought home to the feelings of each person, no such general
feeling prevails against dissection ? — I think not ; I think it is more against exhu-
mation than dissection
1 1 8 j. Are you aware of the price that is given for bodies now ? — I have heard
of it.
1 1 $6. Knowing the high price that is given for dead bodies, do you think that price
is too high for the safety of the living? — I do not know how to answer that ; I have
said before, there will be no stop to the practice whilst the law continues as it is, or
perhaps I ought to say, whilst the present impression or conception of what is the
law, exists ; the difficulty may increase of obtaining dead bodies, but the practice will
continue.
1187. Have you brought with you any returns which will show the number of
persons who die in any of the parish workhouses in London, and the number of such
persons whose bodies are unclaimed ? — I have obtained some returns, which I will
deliver in.
[The Witness delivered in the returns alluded to.]
1185. Is there any further point that you wish to state? — No; I have nothing
further to state to the Committee ; any thing that would tend to remove the prejudice
in the public mind, and the indecency of the practice of exhumation, would be
desirable.
1 1 89. Do you see any thing impracticable in the suggestions which you have heard
in the course of this day's examination? — I think it is a very delicate question ; but it
might be managed so as to effect the object of this inquiry.
W. Ballantine. Esq
r
William Ballantine and Thomas Richbell, Esqrs. called in; and Examined.
1190. YOU are magistrates of the Thames Police? — Yes.
RichLll Esq 1192. Will you state whether vou think the magistrates have authority, in case
they
SELECT COMMITTEE ON ANATOMY. ic
they hear of any dead bodies, disinterred or not, being transported from one place W. Battantine, Esq.
to another, to order an examination of the packages containing those bodies ? — I
think they have that authority.
1193. Intact, when upon a late occasion some bodies had been imported into
this country, did you not issue warrants for the seizure of the packages ? — I sent an
officer on board the vessel without a warrant.
1 194. Do you consider yourself, under all circumstances, fully authorized in any
similar case to issue a warrant ? — I consider myself authorized to do so ; but whether
I should do so or not, would be matter of discretion. If bodies were again brought
into the river under the circumstances in which those were brought, I should feel it
my duty to interfere with them.
1 195. What were the circumstances particularly attending that importation, which
induced you to interfere ? — The Irish steamers were coming in freighted with dead
bodies; I received many anonymous letters upon the subject; I disregarded them,
or I did not regard them further than inquiring how the facts stood ; but at this time
I received some anonymous letters, and letters not anonymous, of a different
character from those I had formerly received ; they stated that bodies were on
board ; that no attempt was made to conceal the fact ; that the passengers com-
plained of the stench; and that, somewhere at the Land's End, some circumstance
occurred on board the vessel, and two or three of the bodies were thrown overboard.
There was little or no endeavour to keep the fact from the public, otherwise the ma-
gistrates would not have interfered.
1 196. Was any notice taken, on the arrival of the steam packet in the river, by
the passengers, respecting the offensive nature of the bodies ? — No ; I received letters
from them before she arrived. Some of them left the vessel when she made the first
land, in consequence of the stench and inconvenience ; but I am not aware that
I should then have interfered with them, without a formal application upon the sub-
ject, but that the river population is of a very peculiar character. We have a vast
number of Irish and other labourers, whom it is very difficult to manage, and I did
not know what would be the consequence of these persons getting a knowledge of
the traffic ; I was afraid of some disturbance in the neighbourhood.
1 197. Did not the issuing of the warrant for the seizure of the body give it in-
creased publicity ? — I had provided against that. The officer went on board ; nobody
but the master knew the purpose of his being there; all the persons on board knew
there were dead bodies on board.
1198. Did not the sailors know they were dead bodies at the time they were
shipped on board the vessel at Dublin? — I have no doubt they did.
1 199. Were the sailors, who were cognizant of the bodies having been received on
board, the fittest persons to raise objections? — No, perhaps they were the least
fitted; but the objection wa<* raised. The fact was brought to my knowledge.
1200. Who were the parties who gave notice to you? — They were anonymous
letters ; some were signed by the parties, but I have no doubt a part were written
by the crew ; and two, which were in the same style, were from persons employed in
raising bodies in town.
1201. After the warrants had been issued, were not the bodies allowed to find
their way to the dissecting rooms ? — That I have nothing to do with. I sent an
officer on board the vessel, and I saw him afterwards, but I made no inquiries
into the matter.
1202. Did you issue a warrant for stopping any of the parties for importing the
bodies ? — No ; I could have traced the thing I dare say, but I carried it no further
than I have stated ; nor should I have carried it so far as I did, if the business had
been conducted so as not to have been forced upon my notice.
1203. Have you any means of knowing what is the number of persons employed
in London in raising bodies r — No, I have not ; I believe they are very few, there are
two persons who are the heads of establishments, and who employ inferior agents ;
there are two men in particular of whom I have heard ; but there are a great
number of persons employed for the mere purpose of raising the bodies.
1204. Are cases of disinterment often brought before you; — No, very seldom;
not at all.
1 205. What have you heard in the course of your magisterial capacity respect-
ing the conduct and character of the men so employed ? — They are thieves.
1 206. Do they make the raising of bodies a colour for the practice of thieving ?
— That has never come to my knowledge, but they are the same class of persons
as the thieves ; I should class them generally wilhthieves.
568. N 3 »207. Having
102 MINUTES OF EVIDENCE TAKEN BEFORE
W.Ballantine,^- 1207. Having heard the evidence of the two preceding witnesses, is there any
. ""d „ thing connected with the subject concerning which they were examined, which you
. ' "^J. ' jSq- think it of importance to state to the Committee?— I agree with Mr. Twyford in his
12 May ^aw uPon tne subject in every point, and in his view generally of the subject I agree
1828. ' with him ; I believe it would not be offensive to the public, if bodies were to be
brought up from the North, or from the Continent, or from Ireland ; bodies are
imported from Ireland, and from the Continent, and from Holland ; if they were
to be brought and decently disposed of here, I believe there would be no inter-
ruption whatever; but I believe if there is any legislation upon the subject to
legalize the importation of bodies, they will legislate on the other side of the water
against you, and put an end to it.
1208. Do you not think it desirable, if possible, to put an end to the practice of
exhumation in this country ? — I believe it is certainly most desirable ; it is that which
is so offensive to the public ; it is every way bad ; it encourages a set of thieves.
1 200,. Are you yourself impressed with the importance of surgeons learning their
profession by means of dissection ? — Very strongly.
1210. Have you considered the suggestions which have been thrown out for ob-
taining a supply of bodies from hospitals and workhouses, by giving up the bodies that
are unclaimed by friends or relatives ? — Yes, I have ; and I think without legislating
upon that subject, it may be effected, if care be taken in the doing of it ; at present,
if I recommend my servant or any other person to an hospital for relief, I believe,
I am required to give security to take away the body and bury it, in case of death;
now instead of that, if it were understood at the hospital that the body should
be removed within twenty-four hours after death, otherwise it would be buried or
disposed of by the hospital, parties would have no cause of complaint ; if they
claimed the bodies within twenty-four hours, very well ; if not, then the subjects
might be used, first for the purpose of anatomical surgery, and afterwards be
interred without causing disturbance or exciting attention.
1211. Will you explain to the Committee how that can be done legally without
an alteration in the law, there being a case in which the master of a workhouse,
a surgeon, and another person, were indicted for a conspiracy to prevent the
burial of a pauper who died in the workhouse, the fact being that the body was
removed to a dissecting room? — It would be a misdemeanor; there would be some
inconvenience to the party, but when the thing is conducted with perfect decency,
the punishment, if any, would be very slight.
1212. Can you expect that the superintendents of hospitals or workhouses should
lend themselves to the introduction of any such practice, when they may render them-
selves by so doing liable to an indictment for a misdeameanor? — It might not be
prudent for them to do it, but still I think they would do it.
1213. Have any vessels arrived in the river, except the one you have now stated,
from Holland or other countries, bringing cargoes of human bodies ? — Not that
I know of; I have heard of it, but I do not know the fact; with respect to the
Irish steamers, they come regularly freighted.
1214. Can you inform the Committee from what foreign countries bodies have
been brought ? — I only hear as matter of conversation ; they get them from France
and Holland, I believe.
1215. Do you not think it would be better to repeal any law which makes it a
misdemeanor to dispose of a body, and to allow persons in general to dispose of a
body which they may legally have in their possession, than to specify that hospitals
or workhouses in particular should be allowed to give up a body ? — I am not able
to say that; as a mere matter of business, I should let the thing alone; I thiDk
that medical men, the persons who are interested in receiving subjects, should pro-
cure them from abroad, or from the hospitals and workhouses, and not elsewhere ;
prejudice is so strong, that legislating will never remove it; certainly not at
present.
1216. Are you aware that bodies cannot be imported in any quantity in a state
fit for dissection ? — I was not aware of that ; and I have seen an antiseptic process
which has kept them for many months.
1217. You consider this supply from abroad would be sufficient? — I think it
might.
1219. In time of war how could you get the supply ? — That would be interfered
with.
1 220. Then the supply would be totally at an end ? — It would be interfered with ;
I apprehend
SELECT COMMITTEE ON ANATOMY. 103
I apprehend there might be a supply from the public hospitals and the workhouses, IV. Bullantine, Esq.
if there be no legislating upon the subject ; but I am apprehensive of that. ^
1221. You would repeal the law of misdemeanor ? — I would leave the law as it is ; <, ' 'c J ' sq' ,
the magistrates do not interfere with the establishments for lectures upon Anatomy ; M
the thing has proceeded for a long while, and may proceed, if not thrust upon the l828.
magistrates, or upon the attention of the public.
1222. Do not you think, if it was made lawful to dispose of a body, that the
friends might be induced to avail themselves of such permission, and to part with
bodies to anatomists ? — I do not think the friends of the deceased would in any
instance avail themselves of the law and sell the body, as well out of some respect or
feeling for the deceased, as from apprehension of public prejudice and resentment ;
a dead body does not, that I know of, vest in any one as property.
1 223. Does not the odium arise in consequence of making it a criminal offence ? —
No ; if you inquire why a body is required to be buried, it is for the general health
of the community.
1224. What advantage is derived from the law remaining, which makes it a
misdemeanor for any one to dispose of the body of his relative? — He has no pro-
perty in it ; the body must be buried. Tf the party have assets, the assets must be
applied to burying him ; or if not, the parish must bury him.
1225. You have spoken of the conduct of the magistrates; that only applies to
London ; do you conceive in the schools of Anatomy in the country, where probably
the dislike to dissection is stronger, and the magistrates not so disposed to lenity
towards such offences, that the same observations apply ? — I do not believe the
magistrate would interfere, unless the conduct of the anatomist forced the subject
upon him. Should a complainant state of a surgeon, " I know there are bodies
for the purpose of dissection in this surgeon's premises, and I desire you, the ma-
gistrate, to give me a warrant ;" the magistrate would say, " I will not give it you ;
you may indict him at the sessions."
1 226. Do not you know that the practice of exhumation has been so general as to
excite a great alarm in England and Scotland, and that guards have been sent to
protect the bodies which are expected to be disinterred ? — Certainly.
1227. Then any means which could prevent the practice of exhumation would
have a good effect upon the community? — Certainly.
1228. If bodies cannot be had in any quantity by importation, there only remain
the two methods of obtaining them, either by exhumation or by the voluntarily giving
them up, in the manner suggested, by parish workhouses and hospitals ? — And also
by importation.
1229. Now do you not think that of the two practices, that of exhumation and that
of obtaining them from the hospitals and workhouses, the former is much more likely
to encourage the dislike which the public feel to dissection?— I think it is ; I mean
to say, that exhumation is that which is very offensive to the public ; they cannot
get over it. A part of the sentence of a murderer is, that he be anatomized; the
circumstance of his being anatomized is distressing to the survivors, only because
the diseased is deprived of sepulture. There are many clubs in London for the
purpose only of establishing a fund to bury the members as they die off; there is
a common desire for decent sepulture, and a common feeling against the disturbance
of the grave.
1 230. Then if burial was to take place after dissection, it would not affect the public
mind so much? — I think the public mind would be reconciled after a season.
1 23 1 . Are you aware that great difficulty has been found in obtaining the requisite
supply of bodies for the surgeons by exhumation alone ? — I know that the supply has
become defective, for the price has been raised from three guineas to ten guineas.
1 232. Do you not think it is a great hardship upon the surgeons themselves, who
are men of education, and expected to learn their profession properly, that they
should be obliged to have recourse to men of bad character and illegal practices for
the means of doing that which is their positive duty ? — Certainly, it must be very-
shocking to men of education and gentlemen.
1233. Then on their account and that of the public, you think it desirable that
exhumation should be done away with ? — Certainly.
1 234. From your experience as a magistrate of the Thames police, can you inform
the Committee whether any difference of feeling prevails amongst sailors upon the
subject as compared with landsmen? — No, I am not aware of that; I hear that
sailors have certainly a great objection to dissection.
568. N 4 James
104 MINUTES OF EVIDENCE TAKEN BEFORE
James Glennon and Richard Pople, called in ; and Examined.
123/5. YOU are officers at Union Hall? — (Pople.) Yes.
{Glennon.) I was so, but retired not long since.
[Glennon was directed by llie Chairman to make answers to the questions, and
Pople to make any observations on such answers, if he differed from Glennon.}
1236. Will you state to the Committee how many men you think there are in
London employed in raising bodies ? — I can hardly answer that distinctly.
1237. Is it more or less than sixty ? — Nearer two hundred.
1238. Are there any particular sets or gangs in London employed in this busi-
ness ? — Yes, they go in parties.
1 239. Is there the Spitalfields gang ? — Yes, but they go about and quarrel and
fight, and change about.
1 240. Can you state what the gangs are, and what are the names they go by ?
— No, I cannot exactly ; there are many I know, but I do not know their names.
1241. What is the usual character of these men; do you think most of them gain
a livelihood by raising bodies alone ? — Not exactly.
1242. What are their other occupations principally? — Thieving, more or less.
1 243. Do you think that the horse and cart that they keep for removing bodies, is
of use to them for any other purpose? — I should think not, except for taking them
out of town.
1 244. Do not you think it would serve them in removing stolen goods ? — I should
think it would, or in committing robberies; I know one instance particularly.
1 245. Do you know of any instance in which men pre tending to be removing
bodies, have been in fact taken in the act of removing stolen goods ? — I have known
them to go out with the view of obtaining bodies, and they have committed burglaries
when they have been out, because they have been interrupted in raising the bodies ;
I know of the instance of Hollis and Cave, regular body-snatchers, who were so
apprehended ; they were taken up, and had six months imprisonment in Maidstone
gaol, for having housebreaking implements in their cart.
1246. You do not think that is a very unfrequent case, making the removing of
dead bodies a cover for other illegal occupations? — 1 know there are many men
who have been in the hulks, or transported.
1 247. Are there any of these persons who are of abetter character than the others,
and who really do follow the raising of bodies as a livelihood, and do not thieve? —
There is a great difference ; some are very respectable and decent in their manner,
and follow the thing so privately that nobody knows anything about it ; there are
some very steady.
1248. How many do you think there are who really follow the raising of bodies
as their regular livelihood?— Very few.
1249. Are triere ten? — I d° not think there is more, if there is that number.
J2.r)0. Do they ever, when one interferes with the work of another, inform against
one another? — Frequently.
1 251 . Is not that the most common mode in which they are found out ? — No, they
are not found out sometimes, although they do that ; because there has been a great
noise and bustle in their doing that, and a great deal of mischief has been done in
alarming the neighbourhood, and the persons the subjects belong to ; bodies are
often returned to their friends, in consequence of one or the other giving in-
formation.
1252. Did you ever hear of their informing against the very persons to whom
they had sold the bodies? — I never had an instance myself; it happens now and
then, I believe ; but it is seldom the same men who take them there, who inform us,
but other men who knew something of it.
1253. Your orders are, probably, not to be as active in endeavouring to detect a
resurrection man, or to prevent his raising a body, as to prevent a felony or a mur-
der?—It is not the same as it used to be ; I used to take a great deal of pains to
detect them ; I spent a little fortune in following ihem formerly, but not of late.
l 254. You pretty well know who the men are in London who pursue this trade ?
— Yes, we cannot help knowing them ; we are out all hours, and running against
them.
1 255. Do you meet with any encouragement from the hospitals in being very strict
and active in endeavouring to discover the resurrection men ? — No ; I never was en-
couraged on either side, not even by the people I acted for ; I have recovered
between
SELECT COMMITTEE ON ANATOMY.
105
May
between fifty and a hundred bodies for persons whose houses have been broken open, J"m" Gknnon
and the body stolen out of the coffin prior to their being buried. a"d
1256. Do you think many bodies are obtained by breaking into houses and stealing y. " """ up e'j
the bodies previous to burying them ? — There have been a great many ; I have a staff
which was presented to me by my neighbours for recovering a body.
1257. When information has been given that a body has been disinterred, do you
find any difficulty at the dissecting rooms in obtaining information concerning it, or
concerning the person from whom they procured it? — I never met with any difficulty,
if I knew the body was there ; but unless I could go and say it was there, and knew
it \va« there, I did not get that assistance ; if I perfectly knew it was there, I hav:
always been treated very respectfully.
1258. Have you often search warrants entrusted to you for examining dissecting
rooms as to whether a body has been removed there ? — I never went with a search
warrant in all my life ; the gentlemen there, are generally kind enough to go with us
Over the theatre, when we do go ; I have been thirty years in my situation, and I was
well known to them, and they always behaved so respectfully, that I always went
without a warrant, and could do more without a warrant than with one.
12.59. Y°u never felt the least obstruction at the anatomical theatres? — No, none
at all ; they went with us, and if we found the body there, we took it away privately ;
I have known many cases in which the different parties of resurrection men have
quarrelled, and have broken into one another's houses, and stolen the bodies, before
they could be conveyed to the theatres ; and they have been so violent, that they
have cut a body into pieces and carried it to the opposite party's house, and raised
a mob there; a thing which they were innocent of.
1 260. Have you heard that to destroy the work of another, they go to the church-
yard and leave the coffin standing upright? — Yes; I have known them fight in the
graves.
1261. Then you probably think the resurrection men, with some few exceptions,
the most worthless class of the community? — The most dreadful.
1 262. Are you aware of a strong feeling in the public mind against the raising of
dead bodies? — Very much so indeed ; and mostly in the lower class.
1263. Is the feeling with respect to the body being dissected, as strong as the
feeling with respect to the body being taken from the grave ? — They are equally
strong.
1 264. Suppose it was the body of a person dying a perfect stranger to every body
in this town, do you think the people then would feel much about its being dissected
by the surgeons ? — Very much ; those who knew it.
1265. You have heard of relations consenting to the bodies of their friends beinc
examined in hospitals? — Many times.
1266. But such relatives would not have given consent to the bodies of their
friends being dissected ? — Certainly not.
1267. They would object more strongly to the bodies of their friends being dis-
interred, than to bodies of their friends being examined by the surgeons ? — Certainly ;
they are more inveterate against the persons who raise them than against the me-
dical men.
126S. When a man commits a crime, do not you think he generally does so calcu-
lating upon the chances of escaping detection and punishment? — Most certainly.
1269. If he knew he was certain almost immediately to be punished, he would
seldom commit a crime?— I cannot speak to that.
l 270. That would be a check upon him ? — Most likely.
1271. When a man thinks of committing a murder for instance, do you think the
chance of being anatomized after death is very likely to deter him from committing
that murder? — I should think not.
1272. You think what is most likely to deter him from committing the murder, is
the expectation of being detected and punished ? — Most likely.
1273. Do you not think that the law which directs the body of a murderer to be
anatomized, has an influence on the public mind, so as to indispose it to the dis-
section of dead bodies ? — Very likely.
56S.
io6 MINUTES OF EVIDENCE TAKEN BEFORE
Mercurij, 14° die Maij, 1828.
Dr. James Macartney, called in ; and Examined.
^r- 1^74- WILL you state to the Committee what situation you hold at Dublin? —
James Macartney.^ profcs90r of Anatomy am] Surgery in Trinity College, Dublin.
i4 May 1275- Have you any experience in England as well as in Ireland? — Yes,
1828. I taught Anatomy, as demonstrator to Mr. Abernethy, as far back as the year l 798 ;
so that altogether I have had thirty years experience.
1276. How many years were you demonstrator to Mr. Abernethy in London?-—-
Three years ; and at a subsequent time, I was teacher of Comparative Anatomy and
Physiology at St. Bartholomew's Hospital.
1277. Are you desirous of stating to the Committee your opinion as to the prin-
cipal cause of the difficulties which have arisen in this country in obtaining a supply
of bodies r — Yes ; and I suppose the best way to do so would be to review the pro-
gress of the subject. At the time which 1 have mentioned (the year 1798), bodies
were abundant in London, and could be procured at the price of from one to two
guineas; at that time, also, none of the grave yards at any distance from London
were invaded ; at the same period there were three hospital schools, a school at
Windmill-street, and Mr. Brookes's, making only five altogether; at St. Bartholo-
mew's hospital there were, at the time first mentioned (1798), about seventy pupils;
in the Borough about 110, according to the best of my recollection ; in Windmill-
street and at Mr. Brookes's about sixty each ; making altogether about 300 anato-
mical students. At that early period, also, I wish to mention, the character of the
resurrection men appeared to be very different from what it is at present, and this
I attribute in a great measure to the rarity of prosecutions; they were seldom
treated as criminals ; when they were taken in the fact, they were usually liberated,
and consequently did not look upon themselves in the same light as they are obliged
to do at present. After that period, the number of anatomical schools increased in
London more than was necessary for the demand, in my opinion, and especially the
number of private schools, of which there are now eleven in London, and four pro-
vincial schools. This created contention between the different parties of resur-
rection men, who were employed by so many different teachers, and was one of the
first causes of the difficulty in procuring bodies in London. At the same time, the
religious prejudices of the Scotch, respecting the sanctity of the dead body, seemed to
come into operation in a very remarkable and unaccountable manner, so that every
grave in the neighbourhood of Edinburgh and Glasgow began to be secured in such
a way that it was made quite inaccessible ; the consequence of which was, that the
resurrection men were obliged to go to some distance from the capitals, and that
again led to frequent detections in both countries, and every detection induced still
greater precautions in country situations, as might be expected. These detections
were published in the newspapers, and copied into the Irish papers ; and to that
may be attributed the origin of the prejudices or the excitement of the public feeling
in Ireland upon this subject.
1278. What was the state of public feeling upon the subject in Ireland formerly ?
— At the period of 1813, or at an earlier one, there were but two schools in Dublin,
besides one private school for dissection.
1 279. Will you enumerate those schools? —The University, the College of Surgeons,
and Mr. Kirby's private school. At that time, it was the practice for students to go
out for the purpose of raising bodies, in company with the porter of each establish-
ment, and not only medical students, but students in arts in the university frequently
went for the purpose. After I went to Dublin in 1813, 1 introduced the system of
regular parties of resurrection men, and for some years there was no difficulty in
obtaining any number of subjects that were required, at the expense of from half
a crown to ten shillings. At present, there are in Dublin the same two public
anatomical schools, besides six private schools, and a person resides there, who lives
by exporting bodies. There are also two provincial schools in Ireland at present,
one in Cork and the other in Belfast. Until the difficulties had increased in England
and Scotland, and until there had been frequent publications, in the Irish papers, of
the detection and punishment of persons for raising bodies, there was very little
popular feeling with respect to dissection ; for the last three years, there has been a
great deal of export trade of subjects carried on from Ireland to Scotland, and to
London.
SELECT COMMITTEE ON ANATOMY. 107
London. This, and the causes already mentioned, have produced a considerable Dr.
difficulty with respect to obtaining bodies in Ireland at this moment. James Macartney.
1280. Can you state the present price of bodies in Ireland? — The price which is -^ — r^
still given by every teacher in Dublin, except myself, is the old price, i. e. from ten 14 May
shillings to half a crown, with a gift at the end of the season. The export, price is 1828.
double those sums, or from one pound to a crown, and those prices I gave last
winter, and consequently was amply supplied. The view I have taken of the ques-
tion is this ; if you have ready communication by steam more especially than by
land carriage, the difficulties that exist in one part of the United Kingdom will soon
be felt in every other part. If bodies be cheap and plenty in one part, a supply
will be got from that part for those places where they cannot be so easily procured.
1 have reason to believe that a considerable number of the bodies that have been
used in London and in Scotland for the last two years, have come from Ireland.
This species of trade, however, cannot long be continued without raising popular
indignation, as has been proved within the last few months in the city of Dublin.
A report was propagated there, which originally had been circulated in Scotland,
that children were kidnapped for the purpose of dissection, and this became so cur-
rently believed by the populace, that it was necessary to protect one of the anato-
mical schools, for nearly a week, by means of the police. This strong feeling in the
public mind arose chiefly from the supposition, that these children were to be sent
over either to Scotland or England by the steam vessels. The difficulty has indeed
been so very great within the last few months, that most of the schools in Dublin
have been unable to finish their winter dissections at the usual period. The com-
mon people frequently of late have assaulted the resurrection-men ; one of these
men died in consequence of a severe beating, and another in consequence of being
whipped with a sort of cat-o'-nine tails made with wire, and others were thrown
into the water. In the first of these cases I paid the expenses of a prosecution for
murder against the parties ; they were not convicted, but the prosecution had a very
good effect on the state of public feeling. I may add, that lately also, even medical
men and medical students were assailed by the people, and that at present the resur-'
rection-men go to a great number of grave yards, some distance from Dublin, pro-
vided with fire-arms and are accompanied frequently by several students armed in
the same manner.
1281. What is the number of students now practising dissection in Dublin? —
I should think about 500.
128;. Of that number, how many are English students? — Probably not 100.
1283. Are there any students from foreign countries also? — Occasionally.
1284. Are there many foreign students? — Not many; some have come from
America and the Continent, but the greatest number of strangers have been from
Great Britain.
1285. You have stated, that you thought that the private schools in London were
too numerous ; upon what do you ground that opinion, when it appears that there are
more surgical students than London is able to supply with the means of education,
since they resort to other countries for that purpose ?— They resort to other countries
from necessity ; I conceive that half the number of schools that exist now in
London, could give ample accommodation in their rooms, and afford sufficient edu-
cation, if they had the means of readily obtaining dead bodies.
1 286. Does not some advantage arise out of tbe multiplicity of schools, inasmuch
as an opportunity is afforded to young teachers of talent, to develope new views ?■ — •
I. should certainly admit that to be so, provided those new teachers were always
qualified persons. At present there is no test ; there are no means of ascertaining
the qualifications of the teacher. The College of Surgeons have, in London, instituted
regulations by which they require certain certificates ; but they have instituted no
regulations for determining the qualifications of the teachers who are to give those
very certificates, nor have they made any provision against receiving false certificates,
which are very frequently presented to them.
1 287. But inasmuch as they do not receive certificates from the teachers of
private schools indiscriminately, the insufficiency of the certificates from the teachers
of private schools, cannot be attributed to the rules of the College of Surgeons ? —
I think it can, upon this principle, that they require no qualification ; any man may
become a teacher upon any subject ; and nothing is more common than for young
men, immediately after they have passed their examination for license to practise,
to profess teaching some branch of medical science.
1288. Is not this an inconvenience which belongs to an unrestricted system in
O 2 every
io8 MINUTES OF EVIDENCE TAKEN BEFORE
Dr. every art and science, that there must be some good and some bad teachers ; but,
James Macartney, upon the whole, is not the acting without fetters found most conducive to the progress
^- — «~- / of science? — As a general proposition, that must be admitted, no doubt ; but still I
14 May am inclined to adhere to the opinion I first gave, which is, that there should be a
1828. qualification for teachers as well as a qualification, for those that practise; because,
in fact, the qualification of the persons who practise, depends upon the knowledge
and abilities of those very men from whom they receive certificates.
1289. The College of Surgeons do not receive certificates from the teachers of
private schools ?— They do now, universally, from teachers in London, Dublin,
Edinburgh. Glasgow and Aberdeen.
1290. Can you point out in the rules of the College of Surgeons, dated 20th
February 1826, that particular regulation which permits the teachers in private
schools to give certificates? — It is not expressed in these rules, but it is done, and
authorized by subsequent regulations. I am quite certain of the fact.
1291. Do you mean, that the teacher of a private school in London, if he be not
attached to a public hospital, is allowed to give certificates? — He is; I know the
college does receive those certificates; 1 do not speak from hearsay, but from
knowledge of the fact.
l 292. Can any person without previous examination, or the authority of any
constituted body, commence lecturing upon surgery in Dublin? — He can; but his
certificates will not be received in London, unless they are received by the Irish
College of Surgeons ; but he requires no authority from any human tribunal for
constituting himself a teacher of any part of medical science, either in London or
Edinburgh or Dublin.
1 293. Is any diploma of the College of Surgeons, or of the University, or of any
other constituted authority in Ireland, necessary to enable a person to practise surgery
in Ireland? — No; all persons may practise surgery. The only restraint is, that the
regular surgeons will not confer with them.
1294. May a person practise as an apothecary in Ireland, without a diploma or
license ? — I think not ; I think there is a distinction. The Apothecaries Company
have made some regulations.
129,5. What is the number of bodies that you think a student in surgery ought to
dissect, before his education can be considered complete ? — What I consider a regular
course of dissection to be performed during one season, is for a student to dissect
every part of the body ; that is, being supplied with half a body for muscles, half
a smaller one for vessels, and half a still smaller one for the nervous system. There
is every encouragement held out to students to dissect an unlimited number of
bodies, and if they can get them, to employ their whole time in that way; and
many students do dissect a greater number than any person is required to dissect,
for the purpose of getting a certificate ; and such " extra dissection" is endorsed
upon the certificates which I give ; but if were I tu express an opinion here, it is, that
not one bodv, nor two nor ten, would give a student the necessary degree of anato-
mical knowledge ; and I should further say, that no professional man can retain or
carry through life his anatomical knowledge ; it must be renewed at intervals.
1296. How many courses of dissection are the students at Dublin required to go
through, before they receive their diplomas? — None. For a medical degree, no dis-
section is made necessary by the statutes of the university, and the education required
in the College of Surgeons in Ireland, consists in serving five years to a master,
but no proof of education is made necessary by the charter of the college.
1297. Is not that a system which you think requires alteration? — A very great
alteration indeed, as does the entire plan of medical education in this country.
1298. How many bodies generally are actually dissected by each student fre-
quenting the schools" in Dublin ? — At least one each. Many students will dissect
three or four in the course of the winter.
1299. Do you mean one in the whole course of their education? — No, one in the
course of one w inter.
1300. And how many years do those students who intend to practise in Ireland,
generally continue their studies? — For a surgical diploma five years is the period
for their apprenticeship, during which time they are supposed, though not obliged, to
be pursuing their studies.
1301. But do they actually pursue their studies during those five years, or are
they partly serving behind the counter, or in making up prescriptions? — Some are
industrious, but many spend a large portion of the period of their apprenticeship in
Idleness
SELECT COMMITTEE ON ANATOMY. 109
idleness or amusement ; their masters do not keep shops; and in general exercise Dr.
no control over the conduct of their apprentices. James Macartney.
1302. Do you conceive it important that a student in surgery should perform 14 Mav
operations upon the dead body?— I do think it quite necessary. 1828.'
1303. Is that part of the course of study in Dublin? — It is not, except in
my own school, and there it is not made compulsory, because I have not the power
to do so ; but those students who wish to perform a course of surgical operations
under my inspection, I superintend without any additional expense to them.
1304. You would advise a promising and aspiring student to perform surgical
operations ? — Decidedly.
1305. From what part of Ireland is it that the export of bodies has principally
taken place to Scotland and London?— From Dublin and from Belfast, but prin-
cipally from Dublin.
1306. Can you explain how it is that the Irish in England and the Irish in Dublin
have been sensitive in so very different a degree upon the subject of exhumation ? —
I really cannot, and yet I am aware of the fact.
l 3(17. What alterations would you suggest, for the benefit of the study of Anatomy,
in the mode of obtaining a supply of bodies? — I have heard of several means being
proposed, all of which I should be glad to see adopted ; and I believe further, that
no one of them would be sufficient of itself. I think it is of the utmost importance
that the prejudice and the general feeling of repugnance which people have against
dissection, should be conquered, for which purpose this document was prepared. It
has been signed in a fortnight, and without sollicitation, by ninety-nine highly respect-
able persons, and is now deposited in my Museum for the purpose of being signed
by greater numbers.
[The Witness then delivered in the following Paper :]
" We, whose names are hereunto affixed, being convinced that t he know ledge of
Anatomy is of the utmost value to mankind, inasmuch as it illustrates various branches
of natural and moral science, and constitutes the very foundation of the healing art;
and believing that the erroneous opinions and vulgar prejudices which prevail with
regard to dissection, will be most effectually removed by practical examples, do hereby
deliberately and solemnly express our desire, that at the usual period after death, our
bodies, instead of being interred, should be devoted by our surviving friends to the
mare rational, benevolent and honourable purpose of explaining the structure, func-
tions and diseases of the human being."
1308. Are the signatures to that document confined to medical and surgical
persons? — No; they consist chiefly of physicians, surgeons and medical students,
but include also lawyers, clergymen, country gentlemen and persons of title.
1309. AVill you continue your suggestions as to the means of obtaining a supply ?
— I consider this document of great importance, as it answers effectually the ob-
jections which people might have, either to taking the bodies of the unclaimed
poor, or obtaining them by exhumation. You never can have an ample supply
of subjects from any class of society, except the friendless poor; but I conceive
their feelings demand as much to be conciliated as those of any class in society
As a second means I should propose that the law should be repealed with
regard to dissection being a part of a murderer's sentence. In the third place
I should wish that bequests should be made legal, and if that were the case, I am
satisfied that most of the persons whose names are affixed to that document would
bequeath their bodies to particular schools under certain conditions, the influence
of which on public opinion can scarcely be estimated too highly. In the fourth
place I should recommend the getting possession of the bodies of persons who die in
hospitals and in workhouses, by the means of secret purchase. An avowed appro-
priation of the bodies of the poor might excite popular ferment. I should further
strongly impress upon the Committee the danger that would attend the making any
new laws which would be more penal with respect to exhumation, upon these two
grounds ; first, with regard to this country, if you fail in getting the unclaimed poor,-
you have nothing else "to depend upon but the system of exhumation ; secondly, it
is the only system that can be carried on with success in Ireland, for poorhouses are
not general in that country, and there are no means of getting the friendless poor,
except by raising them out of the grave yards in which they have been deposited by
their friends ; I do not mean their relations, but their acquaintances or neighbours,
who bury them by the subscription of a few shillings for a coffin and for digging the
grave.
568. O 3 1310. Is
iS-S.
no MINUTES OF EVIDENCE TAKEN BEFORE
D|.. 1310. Is any considerable proportion of the subjects for the College of Surgeons
James Macartney, derived from the hospitals? — No, there is one private school, connected with the
House of Industry, where a considerable number of paupers are supported; their
14 May bodies have been frequently obtained without publicity, but have always been found
insufficient. The greatest, number of the poor of Dublin are received into the esta-
blishment which has been instituted for the relief of mendicants ; but these people
sleep at home, not dwelling in the house as in the English poorhouses, and when
they die, they are not buried at the expense of the establishment, but by their
charitable neighbours. Lastly, I should suggest, as a measure of propriety the
constituting some qualification for teachers, of which there is none at present; and
here I wish to observe, that this is not proposed with any view of preventing
young men of talent coming forward as soon as they are prepared.
1311. What qualification for teachers would you propose? — It is a difficult re-
gulation to make, but I have thought a little upon the subject, and this is what I
should venture to suggest; that every person before he commences teacher, should
give notice to some constituted authority, five years previously, that he does so
intend, and that at the end of the five years, he should either submit himself to a
particular examination for the purpose, or that he should exhibit proofs (if it be
anatomy, manual proofs, as in France) of his power of making preparations ; and
also submit to investigation the anatomical preparations, plates, drawings, &c. he
may have accumulated for the purpose of teaching with; upon which he might
receive a license, and be considered, as in France, an accredited teacher.
1312. Are you not aware that such a limitation would tend very much to impede
young men who have just passed through their course of education, from earning an
honest livelihood by endeavouring to obtain pupils? — I do not think any body is
capable of teaching this science without five years preparation for it.
1313. Does not ignorance of the science professed to be taught, in the teacher of
surgery as well as of every other science, soon operate as a check upon the attend-
ance of the pupil ? — I think not, because the prices are brought down very often
in proportion to the quality of the instruction.
1314. Isnot that reduction of the price of teaching common also to other sciences
as well as surgery, and is not the imperfection soon discovered, and the low price
rendered inexpedient to be paid by the pupil on account of the imperfect know-
ledge acquired ? — I think not; there never has been any period at vUiich so great
a number of persons of limited means entered the profession as do now in con-
sequence of the difficulty of making money in any other way, and hence they have
always a desire to obtain the necessary certificate, to entitle them to an examination
by the College of Surgeons at the lowest possible rate ; besides, students are not
capable of judging of the qualifications of their teachers.
1 3 1 ,5. Some examination is necessary at the College of Surgeons? — Some exami-
nation is always employed by the College of Surgeons, and for degrees in medicine
also.
1316. Then if imperfect knowledge be permitted to practice, does not ihe fault rest
with the examiners, who apply whatever test to adequate knowledge they may think
requisite ? — I think not exactly ; I think that examinations, unless they were con-
ducted in a different manner, on a verv different plan than they are at present in
this country, can not prove the persons knowledge, and I may be allowed to
form an opinion upon this subject from having been an examiner myself for fifteen
years.
1,31 ~. Would not it be a more proper course to allow a competition in teaching, uith
all the advantages which result from that system, and to adopt a more strict mode of
examination, than that a limitation should be imposed upon the number or the qua-
lification of the teachers?— I think that the present mode of examination does not
ascertain a person's knowledge ; if you were to take a medical student to the bed-
side, and present the patient to him, you could tell what degree of knowledge he had
as to the disease, no doubt; or if he were to operate upon the subject, or dissect,
in your presence, or make preparations, you could ascertain his anatomical know-
ledge. I may illustrate this matter by an instance which occurred to me; I was
examining a gentleman once upon the functions and structure of the heart, which he
seemed to be perfectly well acquainted with ; I had a preparation of a heart before
me, and I asked him to place it as it really was situated in the breast ; but in doing
which he showed his total ignorance. The truth is, a person may be made up fear
a particular examination ; every person acquires a mode or style of examining,
which those who take the pains of inquiring into are able to become acquainted
with,
SELECT COMMITTEE ON ANATOMY. m
with. In the College of Surgeons in Dublin, the examination is open to all the Dr.
members of the college, who therefore have an opportunity of knowing what ques- James Macartney.
tions each examiner puts, and of thus learning the kind of questions usually em- v
ployed, and in many cases even of predicting the very questions themselves. 14Q^!fy
1318. But are not the objections which you have just stated, mainly founded upon
the inadequacy of the examination, or upon the incompetency of the examiner? —
I think all examinations, except practical ones, inadequate.
1319. But whv should not practical examinations be rendered requisite, in order to
render it an adequate examination ? — -That would answer very well, no doubt, if it
were possible to accomplish it.
1320. What do you mean by practical examination? — I mean, to examine a per-
son in Anatomy, Surgery, and Medicine, by making him dissect before you; by
making him produce preparations ; by making him operate on a dead body, and by
making him stand by a sick bed and prescribe.
1321. If, by any change in the mode of examination, perfect security could be
obtained for the public that no incompetent practitioner should profess the science,
are you prepared to admit the great advantage of free competition in instruction,
as the best mode of giving to students a cheap education? — 1 do not quite assent
to the doctrine of free competition in professions ; I think, if you adopt that
principle, you must extend it to practitioners as well as teachers, and then you ought
to have no examination at all, but let every man practise medicine and surgery who
thinks fit, and let the public find out his mistakes, and avoid him.
1322. But is it not safer to guard against the ignorance of the party instructed, by
good previous examination, than to allow the public to suffer largely from his ignorance
after he has commenced practice? — Yes; but I think it still better to give him
a good education, and insist upon his having received it, than to depend upon any
oral examination.
1323. You have contemplated a mode of examination which you think would
he an adequate test ? — Yes.
1324. If that were adopted, what possible objection can you see to the free com-
petition of instruction, when by that mode of examination the public would be
guarded against ignorance? — I think that an adequate examination cannot be
employed at present, nor ever can, while any obstruction exists to making use of
the dead.
1325. How could you know that a good education had been received, without
examination?— By spending sufficient time, and going through a particular course.
1326. How are you to ascertain that course has been gone through? — By cer-
tificates.
1327. How are these certificates to be granted? — By the teachers.
1328. Are they to grant them after examination? — No; if a pupil attend a
teacher, he is bound now to give him a certificate ; if the certificates be not false,
they are proofs of his having received an education.
132Q. Is it found at the universities that certificates of attendance for a given
time are certain criterions of the proficiency of the students in sciences, in arts, or
in any other subjects which form the studies of a university ? — I do not say
they are, but I do not think that an examination is as good a test.
1330. Are you not aware that what you have termed practical examination, is
the only examination required previous to conferring a diploma at Paris, and, gene-
rally speaking, abroad? — I am not aware it is the case at Paris ; I believe it is
not; in some of the continental schools I believe it is.
1331. Is it not the ordinary rule in the schools of the Continent, that upon
practical examination alone degrees and diplomas are given? — 1 think it is not
the case at Paris, unless it has been lately introduced.
1332. In some of the continental schools it is? — In some of the continental
schools it is.
1333. You say that a large portion of the students in Dublin amuse themselves?
— During the greater part of their apprenticeship.
1334. And still they grant diplomas in the existing system? — They do.
1335. Are those students who amuse themselves, and have not studied, fitted for
what you call practical examination ?— Certainly not.
1336. If successfully passing through a practical examination were the sole test
for the attainment of 'a diploma, these individuals would not obtain it? — They
would not.
'337- Under the existing system they do obtain it?— They do.
"O 4 1338- You
112 MINUTES OF EVIDENCE TAKEN BEFORE
pr. '338. You have stated to the Committee, that in your opinion, notice should be
Jama Maairtiin/. given by any private lecturer, five years previous to his giving those lectures ; why
^ - ' do you state so distant a period? — Because I think it is as short a period as any
14 May person having once made up his mind to become a teacher upon the subject, can
182 quality himself in for the purpose.
1339. You have likewise stated, that the person's education should not be less
than five years ? — It is usually not less ; that is a very general time in different
parts of Europe.
1340. Are there any clever and studious young men who make themselves perfect
in the course of those live years? — Not perfect, but distinguished no doubt.
1341. How long after that period of five years for their education, do you think
a person fitted to lecture? — I think five years a very moderate period to prepare
himself for teaching.
1342. Then you mean to say, it must be ten years before any young man can
venture to teach? — From the commencement of his studies, 1 do not think it is too
much.
1343. How long had you studied medicine before you lectured ; had you studied
the whole ten years you require other persons to study? — I studied seven years before
I thought of practising, and nineteen years elapsed from the commencement of my
education before I was appointed to my present office. In the first instance I was
but an assistant to Mr. Abernethy, who could have displaced me at anytime if I had
been found incompetent ; I was nominated by the medical officers of St. Bartho-
lomew's hospital to lecture on comparative anatomy and physiology, after they had
seen the collection of preparations I had formed for the purpose.
1344. What is the duty of a demonstrator in the London hospitals? — It was to
point out the parts that were dissected in the room during one hour each day,
which is a thing that an advanced student is sometimes competent to do.
1345. How long had you studied when you became demonstrator at St. Bartho-
lomew's Hospital? — About four years; my reason for mentioning the private lec-
turers at all was, that I do attribute, in a great measure, the difficulties which exist
with respect to the supply of bodies for dissection, to the circumstance of their
being too many teachers placed in opposition to each other ; I believe, if you had
five hundred bodies to distribute amongst five schools, you would find it much more
easy to procure them, than if you had the same number to distribute amongst fifty
schools, and I feel quite satisfied, that many dissecting schools were established for
the purpose of preparing students for examination by the process called grinding,
which I consider to be extremely injurious to the progress of the science.
1346. Have you any further observation to make upon the subject? — I have only
one more observation to add ; it fell from one of the witnesses at the last examination,
that bodies might be continued to be procured from Ireland in sufficient numbers ; now
I feel quite sure if the export trade be continued from Ireland, it will extinguish
Anatomy in that part of the kingdom, by which this country would be deprived of
the beneficial influence which dissection, going on freely in Ireland, would necessarily
have on the opinions and feelings of persons in England ; I should add, that if
facility be granted for transporting bodies from any one part of the kingdom to the
other, it would be the means of exciting very strong feelings of indignation in the
persons who reside in the place from whence such bodies are taken.
1 347. Would not practical examination be a certain preventive against the pupils
being prepared by that process which you mentioned, of grinding, for the ex-
amination requisite for obtaining a medical degree or surgical diploma ? — Certainly.
16 May
Veneris, \6' die Maij, 1828.
Mr. Thomas JFakky, called in ; and Examined.
1348. I Believe you are a surgeon? — -Yes.
1349. Where do you live? — At 35, Bedford-square.
1350. The Committee understand that you wish to state in what way some of
the regulations adopted by the Royal College of Surgeons for examining candidates
for diplomas, tend to increase the difficulties of obtaining a supply of subjects for
dissection ; is that the case ? — Yes.
1351. Will you point out, in the regulations of the College of Surgeons, dated the
SELECT COMMITTEE ON ANATOMY.
5th of January 182S, which are the regulations that so tend to increase the diffi-
culties ? — I will read them.
I. — " The only schools of Anatomy and Physiology recognized, are London, Dublin,
Edinburgh, Glasgow, and Aberdeen."
IV. — Regulation.— •" The following certificates will be required of candidates for the
diploma of the College."
1st. — " Of having been engaged six years at least in the acquisition of professiona
knowledge."
2d. — " Of having regularly attended three or more winter courses of Anatomy and
Physiology, and two or more winter courses of dissections and demonstrations,
delivered at subsequent periods."
Section 5. — " And of having attended, during the term of at least one year, tli«
surgical practice of one or more of the following hospitals, viz. St. Bartholomew's,
St. Thomas's, the Westminster, Guy's, St. George's, the London, and the Middlesex
in London; the Richmond, Sjeevens's, and the Meath in Dublin; and the Roya)
Infirmaries in Edinburgh, Glasgow, and Aberdeen ; or during four years, the
surgical practice of a recognized provincial hospital, and six months at least the
practice of one of the above named hospitals in the schools of Anatomy."
1352. Will you state in what way you consider these regulations to interfere with
the supply of subjects? — If I were to do that, it would be only offering my opinion ;
perhaps you will allow me to state the facts as they have occurred since 1819 or
1820. In 1815, and from that period to about 1S22, there were very few diffi-
culties experienced in this town with regard to obtaining an adequate supply of
subjects for dissection. In 1823, the College of Surgeons in Lincoln's-Inn Fields
enacted a bye-law, slating, that certificates of dissection would not be received by
the Court of Examiners, unless the dissections were performed during the winter
season ; this bye-law had the effect of drawing the pupils from every part of
England for the purpose of cultivating the science of Anatomy to that extent which
would enable them to undergo their examination for the diploma. In consequence
of the extraordinary flow of students into London, at that period, the dissecting
rooms became very much crowded with pupils ; as there was an increased demand
for bodies, an increased price was asked by the resurrection men, and ultimately
the price became so exceedingly high, that a number of individuals, who before had
not embarked in the practice of exhumation, entered upon it; bodies were raised
and procured, for a time in the most indecent manner, and at last the churchyards
and every description of burial ground in the neighbourhood of London were so
watched, that to obtain any subjects for the purpose of dissection, was next to im-
possible. In tS24, the College enacted the Bye-law N° IV. section 5, in which
it was further stated, thai, " No certificates in testimony of attendance on dissections
would be received by the Court, except from the appointed professors of Anatomy
and Surgery in the universities of Edinburgh, Glasgow, Aberdeen, and Dublin, or
from persons who were physicians or surgeons to the hospitals in the recognized
schools, or from persons unless recommended by the medical establishments of
those hospitals." This regulation had a most extraordinary effect upon the private
schools in this town, and I have the authority of Mr. Brookes for stating that it
was nearly his ruin. I have further the authority of Messrs. Brookes and Carpue
(whom I have seen since I received the summons of this Committee) for stating
that previously to 1823 (comparatively speaking), they experienced no difficulty in
obtaining subjects ; but the College of Surgeons having limited the space from
which subjects should be procured to London, and the time in which dissection
should be performed, to seven or at most eight months in the year, the difficulties
of procuring subjects had increased to such a degree, that their rooms were often
unfurnished with the requisite materials for prosecuting the study of Anatomy.
I have the authority of both of these gentlemen for stating, that in the summer
they could always obtain subjects for dissection with greater facility than in the
winter. The ascribed motive of the College for enacting the law restricting
dissections to the winter season, " In consequence of the manner in which
dissections in the summer endangered the lives of the students," does not
appear to be the real one. As Mr. Brookes has lectured during the summer
season, from fifteen to twenty years, without having had a single pupil die
from the practice of summer dissection ; and during the whole of his experience
he has lost but one pupil from dissection, and that pupil died at Christmas.
Mr. Carpue also has practised summer dissections nearly twenty years, and he has
not lost a single pupil. It will have been already perceived that the bye-law passed
in 1823, and that passed in 1824, had the direct tendency of throwing all the fees
*G§. P which
16 May
114 MINUTES OF EVIDENCE TAKEN BEFORE
which could arise from teaching of Anatomy in this country, into the pockets of the
London hospital surgeons, anil their immediate dependents and relatives ; and it is
not a little singular that the members of the Court of Examiners, by whom these bye-
laws were enacted, were themselves, at least seven of them, London hospital sur-
geons. These laws, continuing in operation at the present time, produce the same
mischievous effects with regard to the cultivation of Anatomy as at the period when
they were first enacted. Before they were enacted, dissections were practised any-
where, and certificates were received without any specifications as to the time or
place, in which or at which the dissections were performed ; every body that could
be obtained, was invariably applied to the purposes of dissection, and eagerly sought
after by the professional men, not only of London, but of every part of the king-
dom; and students as easily answered the questions proposed to them in their exa-
minations at the college, at that period as at present. Certificates not being received
by the Court of Examiners from any part of England, except London, all the pupils
necessarily resort to this place ; consequently the chances of an adequate supply
of subjects to meet the increased demand have of course been, and really are very
much lessened. The Court of Examiners appear chiefly to rely on the certificates of
students as the most important proof of ability ; but at the period when these bye-
laws were enacted, and subsequently to that period, there was scarcely a subject
to be procured for dissection in the anatomical schools of this metropolis ; yet the
Court of Examiners required from the pupils certificates of dissections which had
never been performed. To show the fallacy of relying on certificates as a proof of
the quantity of dissections accomplished, I may instance an occurrence which hap-
pened to myself. When about to apply for examination at the College, I was asked
by a fellow-student what number of certificates I had to take with me, and I told
him very few ; on which he said that was a pity, because the examination was
generally proportioned to the quantity of certificates produced by the pupil. I men-
tioned to him that I had entered to one lecturer at a distant part of the town when
I first came to London ; but finding it inconvenient to attend, after three or four
mornings, I relinquished the attendance; of course, I said, I could get no certificate
from him. " You had better try," he replied ; " I think you can." Accordingly
I did apply, and received a certificate from the lecturer, stating that I had " regu-
larly and diligently" attended one course of his lectures on Anatomy, Physiology,
and Surgery, and one course of his dissections, although I had attended but four or
five of his lectures, and no dissection whatever. The effect of the bye-law to
which I have already alluded, directly tends to destroy the value of certificates,
because from the manner in which it has crowded the anatomical theatres and
dissecting rooms, it is utterly impossible for the lecturer to know whether the pupil
has been attentive to his studies or not. Subjects, up to the period of 1823, before
the winter courses of dissection were required by the College, could be procured
almost without difficulty, and to any extent, at four guineas each ; but since that
period, many of the dissecting rooms of this town have been weeks and even months
without a subject; yet in the summer, when the lectures are altogether prohibited,
or at least not recognized by the College, subjects are procurable with the greatest
facility, and at the same price as formerly.
1353. Have you any further observations to make upon the regulations you have
pointed out? — A petition now lies on the table of this Honourable House from the
great body of surgeons, praying for the repeal of the regulations in question on
account of their injustice towards country surgeons in the large provincial hospitals,
as they have had the effect, or nearly so, of entirely putting a stop to the teaching
of Anatomy in the country ; that petition was presented to the House the year
before last.
1354. Have you any observations to make upon article 5. of Bye-law N* IV. ? —
That clause recognizes the attendance of pupils on the practice of the hospitals, of
" St. Bartholemew's, St. Thomas's, the Westminster, Guy's, St. George's, the
London and Middlesex, in London ; the Richmond, Steevens's, and the Meath, in
Dublin; and the Royal Infirmaries in Edinburgh, Glasgow and Aberdeen, or
during four years, the surgical practice of a recognized provincial hospital." The
manner in which this regulation is calculated to crowd the hospitals of London, and
to draw off the pupils from the provincial institutions, where they have equal, if not
greater opportunities of acquiring professional knowledge, may be understood by the
fact, that although one year's attendance is deemed sufficient at the Westminster
Hospital, four years attendance in a provincial hospital is required ; yet the West-
minster Hospital contains only 82 beds, while some of the provincial hospitals
5 contain
SELECT COMMITTEE ON ANATOMY. 115-
contain upwards of 300; still the required attendance at the Westminster Hospital is
only a fourth of the period required at the others ; but two of the four surgeons of
the Westminster Hospital are on the Court of Examiners, and the whole four are
members of the council from which the Examiners are elected.
135/5. Is not the winter, of necessity, a period more fit for dissection than the
summer, on account of the rapidity with which the subjects become unfit for exa-
mination?— I think not, to the extent generally believed ; because, with proper care
and attention, subjects can be preserved with antiseptics, for all the purposes of
dissection, nearly as well in the summer as in the winter season. I have this morn-
ing seen a subject at Mr. Carpue's, with the muscles still on the bones, which has
been dissected upwards of one year, and I cannot say that it is offensive even now.
13,56. Before the College passed the bye-law admitting only attendance at winter
courses of lectures, did as many pupils attend the summer as the winter courses in
London ?— There is a difficulty in answering that question, because many of those
lecturers who lectured in winter, did not lecture in summer.
1357. But although the same lecturers did not lecture in the winter and the
summer, was the attendance upon the summer lectures as great as upon the winter
lectures?— Greater, at least with Mr. Brookes ; but that gentleman and two others
were, I believe, the only lecturers in the summer.
1 3 .5 S . Was the number of lecturers who lectured in the summer less than the
number of those who lectured in winter? — Far less.
1359. Therefore, upon the whole, the number of pupils who attended summer
lectures was less? — It was less.
1360. When it was equally open for pupils to receive certificates for their at-
tendance at summer as well as winter lectures, to what do you ascribe the greater
number attending the winter courses? — It was a matter of greater convenience.
The medical sessions commenced in October and terminated in May, and for many
years there was only one lecturer to any extent in the summer, and that was
Mr. Brookes, whose theatre was always full. Whilst I was at St. Thomas's Hospital,
Sir Astley Cooper, at the end of his course, invariably recommended us to go to
Mr. Brookes's during the summer season, if we wished to learn Anatomy.
1361. Were the other lectures which are usually attended by students upon
Materia Medica and Physiology, given in the summer months? — In summer and
winter also.
1362. You stated, that the pupils receiving certificates from various lecturers
formerly passed their examinations at the College as easily as at present ; does not the
facility with which they pass depend as well upon the strictness of the examiner as
upon the qualifications of the examinee? — Unquestionably; but with one or two or
three exceptions at most, the same examiners formed the court then as at present.
1 563. Do you apprehend the examinations were as strict then as they are now ? —
I have no means of knowing; they cannot be less strict. I had no question what-
ever in Anatomy proposed to me when I was examined.
1364. In what year was that? — In the beginning of the year 1817.
1365. Were you required then to procure certificates? — Certificates of this kind
{producing one,) as to lectures and dissections, without stating where the former were
attended or the latter performed. This is the certificate, Mr. Carpue informs me,
he was in the habit of giving at that time.
13(16. It does not state how many courses or the length of each course? — No.
1367. Do you not consider, that in one respect the present regulations are better
than they were formerly, inasmuch as they require to be specified the number ot
courses of lectures on Anatomy and dissection that the candidates for diplomas
have attended? — No; I think they are much worse, because they compel the
student of talent to devote as much time to the study as they do the student of ex-
treme dullness, who might require a period five times as long.
1368. If the Committee correctly understand the nature of your answer, you
would not recommend that the time during which the pupil has attended dissections
should be any qualification ; you would desire that the knowledge of the pupil should
be ascertained, at the period of his presenting himself, by a more strict course of exa-
mination ? — Certainly ; I would neither require that the time the pupil had attended,
nor the place where he had attained his information, should be specified ; I conceive
that every thing should be made to depend on an efficient, practical, public exa-
mination.
1 369. Are all the private lecturers, who now give lectures on Anatomy or a course
of dissection in London, accredited l>v the medical establishments of recoo-nised
- 568. P 2 hospitals ?—
nG MINUTES OF EVIDENCE TAKEN BEFORE
hospitals? — That is a question I cannot answer. The bye-laws have been altered
annually these five years last past.
1370. I do not observe in this copy of the regulations, dated the 5th of January
l 828, the same limitations which are found in the copy dated February 1 826. It is
not stated in the copy, bearing date the 5th of January 1828, " That certificates of
attendance at lectures on Anatomy, Physiology, theory and practice of Surgery, and
the performance of dissections, be not received by the Court, except from the ap-
pointed professors of Anatomy and Surgery, in the Universities of Dublin, Glasgow
and Aberdeen, or from persons teaching in a school connected with or accredited by
the medical establishment of a recognized hospital in one of the schools of Anatomy,
or from persons being physicians or surgeons to any of such hospitals"? — No, it is
expunged; and the certificates of a gentleman who is present, are now received by
the Court of Examiners ; although they were refused by the Court of Examiners in.
1823, 1824 and 1825.
1371. Then you believe the certificates of private lecturers, although not ac-
credited by the medical establishments of the hospitals, would be now received ?
—Yes.
1372. You stated, that this morning you saw a subject which had been dissected
a year ago, and by the use of antiseptics, the muscles still remain on the bones ; is
that mode of preparation generally known ? — I believe not; but the only means used
to preserve it, is common salt. It was at Mr. Carpue's. He had one subject also
dissected about a fortnight, and in that, the muscles and other parts were quite
perfect, and almost free from smell.
1373- Do you think, that if subjects could be procured in a sufficient quantity from
the Continent, and if prepared in the manner just described, they Mould be fit subjects
for anatomical purposes ? — Yes ; but I think we can obtain without difficulty,
much better subjects here, and without violating any of the feelings or prejudices of
the public. I believe that not more than from 500 to 700 subjects are wanted for
the purposes of dissection in any one year, and I consider there are more than
1,000 unclaimed persons who die in our public institutions, such as hospitals, work-
houses and prisons, during the same period. If we were to rely upon a foreign
source, in the event of a war, the supply would be instantaneously cut off. If on
the other hand, we were to have the bodies of unclaimed persons for dissection, we
should be certain of an abundant supply ; and there would be no outrage to public
feeling, because people are quite indifferent, as long as the subjects are not their own
relatives or friends. The great prejudice which exists in this country against the
practice of dissections, appears to arise from that enactment of the legislature which
consigns the bodies of murderers to dissection ; also from the disgusting and filthy
practice of exhumation, which employs, I believe, nearly 100 men, who are con-
tinually violating both law and decency.
1374. Since the number of pupils attending the winter courses has at all times
been considerably greater than the number of those attending the summer courses,
should you anticipate much diminution of the scarcity of subjects now existing, pro-
vided certificates from the summer courses were admitted ? — Certainly not, if London
is still to be the only school of Anatomy recognized in England.
137,';. Should you anticipate any considerable diminution of the scarcity, if certi-
ficates from provincial lecturers were admitted more freely ? — Certainly, a very great
diminution, if the period of attendance on the provincial hospitals were reduced to the
same standard as that on the hospitals of London.
1376. Under the present regulations, is the period of attending the provincial
courses required to be double that required to be in the London schools ? — Certificates
of attendance on provincial lectures on Anatomy are not admitted at all; but the
period of attendance in country hospitals on surgical practice, is four times as long
as that required in the London hospitals.
1377. In the regulations, dated February 1S26, this passage occurs; " Of
having diligently attended during the term of at least one year, the surgical practice
of one of the following hospitals ;" and then follows a list of the London, Dublin,
Edinburgh and Glasgow hospitals, " and twice that term in any of the provincial
hospitals as above described ;" the above hospitals, meaning such hospitals as shall
contain on an average, 100 patients ?— Strictly speaking, that regulation amounts to
an exclusion of the Westminster hospital, although you will perceive in Regulation 5,
it is recognized.
1375. How is it that the period of attendance, as described by you to be required
in the provincial hospitals, is four times the period that is required in the London
hospitals? —
SELECT COMMITTEE ON ANATOMY.
117
hospitals r— I cannot say; but the demand is contained in the last copy of the
regulations, dated the 5th of January 1828. The regulations were altered in 1827.
They then slated, that certificates of a two years attendance in a provincial hospital
would be received by the Court, provided "the pupil bad previously attended two
courses of lectures and two courses of dissections in one of the recognized schools,
London being at the same time the only recognized school in England.
1379. Do you happen to know how many patients there are" in the hospital at
Leeds ?— I do not ; but I should think from two to three hundred ; at Manchester
there are about three hundred.
1380. Are you aware of any reason why so much longer a period should be re-
quired for walking the country hospitals? — None whatever; unless it be that
it favours the examiners themselves. Indeed it is generally considered that where
there are only a few pupils, they have a better opportunity of acquiring informa-
tion than where there are many.
1381. You think then that a shorter time would be requisite in the country
than in London ? — I do.
1382. Are you aware of the following being the bye-laws of the College of Surgeons
in London, as long ago as the 25th of February 1819 : — 1st. Candidates must have
certificates, first, of having been engaged for five years at least in tbe acquisition of
professional knowledge ; 2d, of having regularly attended two courses at least of
anatomical lectures, and also one or more courses of surgical lectures in London,
Dublin, Edinburgh or Glasgow ? — I am aware of some such regulation havino-
existed.
1383. What is the reason for the different footing upon which Aberdeen and
Dublin are put from other country hospitals ? — I cannot say ; the Royal Infirmary
of Aberdeen is very inferior as a school of surgery to many of the non-recognized
provincial hospitals.
1384. Are they on the same footing as the London hospitals? — Yes.
Mr.
Thomas WakUy.
16 May
Edmund Bel/our, Esq. called in ; and Examined.
1385. WHAT office do you hold ? — Secretary to the College of Surgeons.
138b. Have you heard the evidence given by the last witness? — Yes.
1387. Do you now wish to give any explanation of the course pursued by the
College of Surgeons? — Mr. Wakley stated, that till lately certificates of dissection
were received from schools in the country, and not confined to London, and he attri-
butes the difficulty of procuring subjects to that regulation ; the provincial schools are
so far recognized, that all lectures required by the late regulation of the College of
being attended by candidates, may be attained in the provincial schools, with the
exception of Anatomy, and one course of surgery is required to be in London.
1388. Is it the case that the attendances on the courses of all private lectures are
admitted ? — There is no instance in which it has been refused ; there is one instance
that recently occurred ; a very young man has commenced lectures and wrote to the
Court to know whether his certificates would be received, and the reply was, after he
had delivered one course, his application would be taken into consideration ; I would
add, that the examinations are infinitely more strict now, than they were before.
1 389. You say a person attending country lectures in different branches of medical
science, with the exception of Anatomy, are received? — Yes; they are required to
attend one course of lectures in London.
1390. Are such persons received, having gone through the same period of lectures,
as if they had done so in London, or would they require a longer time ? — Not of
lectures; hospital attendances they do.
1391. What difference of period is there between hospital attendances in London
and in the country ? — The regulations point that out ; four years for one and one
year for the other.
1392. Why are lectures upon other subjects recognized and not lectures on
Anatomy? — Because it has been found impossible to teach Anatomy in the country;
end I need not remind this Committee of the uproars in which individuals have in-
volved themselves in attempting to teach Anatomy in the country.
1393. Is it not because they cannot obtain the requisite subjects ? — Yes.
1394. Would not the best cure for that imperfection of provincial schools be, to
make the examination of the College so strict that no person should pass without
having acquired a competent knowledge of his profession ? — They do not now pass
until they have undergone such an examination.
568. P 3 '395- K
Edmund Be1fovrt
Esq.
n8 MINUTES Ol' EVIDENCE TAKEN BEFORE
Edmund telfow, 1 395. If B person can pass in a competent manner, what reason can there be given
Es1- why be should not receive his diploma, in whatever part of the world he may have
studied ? — I am not enabled to answer that question ; 1 refer to a competent anatomist
'f8jpay to answer that question.
C. D. called in ; and Examined.
139(5. I Bklievk, for several years, from 1809 to 1813, you had the sole supply
of subjects to the anatomical schools in London ? — I had.
1397. Will you state to the Committee what was the number of subjects you sup-
plied to the anatomical schools in 1809 and 1810? — The number in England was,
according to mv book, 305 adults, 44 small subjects under three feet ; but the same
year, there were 37 for Edinburgh and 18 we had on hand that were never used
at all.
1398. Now go to 1810 and 1811 ? — Three hundred and twelve.
1399. Adults for that year? — Yes, and 20 in the summer, 47 small.
1400. 18] 1 to 1812? — Three hundred and sixty in the whole, 56 small ones,
these are the Edinburgh ones and all.
1401. Goto 1812 and 1813?— The following summer there were 234 adults,
32 small ones.
1 402. At what price, on the average, were those subjects delivered ? — Four guineas
adults, small ones were sold at so much an inch.
1403. Was this supply ample for the wants of the schools at that time ? — Certainly,
and more than they wanted.
1404. What was it that made you discontinue in 1813 from supplying the schools
of Anatomy ? — Why there had been trouble with men going out ; the lecturers got to
supply strange men, and that was the cause of a great deal of trouble.
1405. Did you ask the lecturers to give you a greater price than they had been
in the habit of giving you, and did they refuse to do so? — Yes, we did, and they
did so.
1406. Were you in the habit of sending many bodies to Edinburgh? — We were
every year in the habit of doing so.
1407. Did you also supply other schools of Anatomy in the country? — Yes; we
used sometimes to send subjects to Bristol and other places.
1408. Were the profits of this business more than ample to allow a man to live
comfortably by it? — Certainly not.
1409. What plans have you proposed to professional gentlemen in order to afford
them a constant and regular supply of the necessary subjects ? — Why, the plans I
formerly proposed, when they found there was a difficulty of supplying subjects,
were, to have the bodies of men that were convicted of offences and died in gaols, to
be delivered to the surgeons for dissection ; also the bodies of convicts executed.
1410. In your opinion, do the men employed in raising bodies from the graves
make that employment a pretence often for other occupations? — They do, certainly.
1411. Of what other description ? — Thieving ; thieving, most unquestionably ; but
I have never been with them when they have committed any other offences than
raising the bodies, of course ; but I am sure it is so.
1412. Do you, in your opinion, conceive that you could obtain an ample supply of
subjects for the use of the anatomical schools, by importing the bodies from abroad ?
— It is doubtful, and for this reason ; I might not be able to get a sufficient number of
hodies from any one place at a time, to import them, and it would not do to be going
from place to place.
1413. Suppose the government on this side of the water were to interfere, and
remove all difficulties, do you think you should be able? — 1 think so.
1414. From what quarters ? — From the Netherlands and from Holland.
141.5. You state you think you could get the supply, provided the British govern-
ment removed all obstacles on this side the water ? — No, on that side.
141 (i. By consent? — Yes, by regulations with the other government.
1417. Do you think there are any difficulties at present imposed by the govern-
ments on the other side r — I think not; they have very little prejudice indeed ; formerly
the boxes and packages were never leaded, never sealed ; in France, they are now.
141 S. Have you ever imported any bodies from abroad ? — Not bodies ; I have im-
ported several curious anatomical specimens, and I have several now, such as
separated heads, and things of that sort; they are all imported from Paris; I never
bought any in the Netherlands.
1419. Now suppose that you could once again be (as you were formerly) the only
tme
SELECT COMMITTEE ON ANATOMY. n9
one who supplied the London surgeons with subjects, what is the course you would
take to accomplish your purpose? — The course I should take would be to have the
workhouse subjects ; we can get them out of the burial-ground without any difficulty l6 MaX
whatever; I am satisfied that there are three or four workhouses that would supply l828'
every subject that would be wanting ; that was the point I laid down before an
Honourable Member who consulted me, but he would not consent to it.
1420. Is it not a common course, for resurrection men, in order to obtain bodies
from workhouses, to claim them as the bodies of relatives ? — I believe it is constantly
done ; I never did so myself; 1 did attempt it once myself, but was detected ; it was
at St. John's, and we should have obtained the body, but a committee was sitting that
evening of the parish, which was sitting at the workhouse where the body lied to be
-owned ; the constable happened to come into the workhouse at the time, and he knew
me, and that prevented it ; or else we should have certainly had the body.
1421. Do you not believe many bodies are now obtained in that way? — No doubt
they are, and out of hospitals as well ; it did not use to be so. when we could get a
plentiful supply.
1422. Have you made any inquiries yourself, from which you are enabled to
inform the Committee what is the number of subjects that would now be wanted
for the use of the anatomical schools in London? — Four hundred would be more
than a sufficient supply ; I mean adults ; with respect to small subjects, it is all chance.
1423. Do you know that the number of dissecting pupils is now as high as 600 or
700 in a season ? — Yes.
1424. And has much increased since the time when you had the supply? -Why
yes ; I left off in 1 820 ; to be sure I did go out at different times afterwards, but then we
had our men shot away from us, and it was very dangerous ; on one occasion one man
was shot in four places, and we took him away with us ; to be sure, I had never
gone out with him before, and he was an incautious hand ; he came and told us where
the body was to be got, and we went with him.
1425. Now since you have left off, have you not understood that the risk in going
out has very much increased ? — Yes, it has ; and we always left the grave open if we
found the body gone.
1426. With what view did you leave the grave open ? — That the ground should be
completely spoiled, and that it should be no benefit to them or to us ; nothing but
opposition.
1427. Why that would defeat the mutual objects? — Yes, but it was not fair in
a case where life was at stake ; life was at stake, you know ; if I went into the
ground after a body was gone, a watch might be set, and I not know it.
1428. Have you had any communication with an eminent surgeon on this subject ?
—As regards an eminent surgeon, I proposed to him that our men should produce as
many bodies as could be used, if each student paid six guineas on his entrance — as
many as they should want ; that proposition was refused, on the ground that it was
rising the price.
Veneris, 23° die Maij, 1828.
The several Petitions referred to this Committee since the 28th of April,
were read.
F. G. called in ; and Examined.
1429. C. D., a person who has been before the Committee, and with whom you
have been connected in business, has informed the Committee what was the num- j? q
ber of bodies with which the schools had been supplied from 1810 to 1813 ; will \ ^
you state to the Committee, whether the bodies so raised, amounting on an 23 May
average annually to above 300, consisted principally of the bodies of rich or poor? 1828.
■ — Both classes ; but we could not obtain the rich so easily, because they were buried
so deep.
143°- But what did the greater proportion consist of?— There is a greater
number of poor.
568. P 4
120 MINUTES OF EVIDENCE TAKEN BEFORE
Mr. William Aidous, culled in ; and Examined.
1431. WHAT situation have you held in St. James's parish? — Overseer.
1432. Have you been much troubled with exhumation in that parish of late? —
I believe not ; 1 have not heard of it.
1433. Have you heard oi'its taking place in former years to any extent? — Yes,
I have heard so.
1434. If there were any means for supplying the surgeons with subjects, without
being compelled to have recourse to the exhumators, would not such a chang be
considered very desirable by the parish officers? — Very desirable.
1435. Is not the parish put to very considerable expense in employing extra
watchmen at high wages, for the purpose of keeping off resurrection men ? — Yes,
there is an extra watchman employed to protect the burial ground at night.
1436. What objection do you think the inhabitants of the parish would feel,
provided they were assured that the object was to do away with the practice of exhu-
mation, to the bodies of those who died in the workhouse and were unclaimed by any
friends or relatives, being given up to the surgeons for dissection? — I should
think the objection would arise in their minds, that the bodies were not buried ;
but if they had security that the bodies would be buried in a proper and customary
way, I should say there would be no objection to those particular bodies being
delivered up.
1437. If they felt secure, after dissection had been completed, that the bodies
were to be buried with proper funeral rites, and if at the same time they were
satisfied that exhumation would be superseded by the change, you do not think they
would object to the particular bodies adverted to, being given up ? — I should say,
most decidedly not.
1438. Would you not think it right in such cases, that the surgeon should be re-
quired to pay all the expenses of the burial, and give security to the parish that the
burial should actually take place? — Yes; should actually take place in the parish
which gave up the body.
1439. Such a change would be a material relief to the parish funds, would it not,
if the surgeons bore the expense of the burial of s_ch persons? — A very great
relief in many parishes ; much more than in ours ; we have very few in proportion
to some other parts ; our parish being central, the casualties are not so great as
in the parishes at the outskirts of the town, which strangers have a claim upon when
they come to London. St. James's they have no claim upon, and do not get relief
unless actually taken in, and belong in that sense to the workhouse, and die there.
1440. Can you state what the expense of burial is, including the different fees,
and the expense of the coffin also? — Not exactly.
1441. About how much? — From twenty-five to thirty shillings probably.
1442. So that if the surgeons deposited 2/. with the parish, and further gave any
security that the parish might require, that the body alter dissection should be re-
turned to the parish for burial, you cannot see any objection to such a plan ? — My
opinion is, if the surgeons were to make a deposit to the parish sufficient to pay
for a proper coffin, the body might be taken away in that coffin, with a security that
it should be interred in the ground belonging to the parish ; and to be carried for
burial from the place of dissection, would be better than bringing it back again to the
workhouse or establishment from whence it was taken.
1443. Might it not tend to reconcile the parishioners still further to the change,
if the surgeons were to pay something more than the burial expenses to the parish
for the purpose of being distributed amongst the poor of the parish? — I should
think the parish would not require that or be more satisfied ; the parish officers of
course do not want to make a profit of anything of that kind.
Mr. Richard Spike, called in ; and Examined.
Mr_ 1444- YOU are a select vestryman of the parish of Saint James's ? — I am.
Richard Spike. 1445- Have you served the office of churchwarden ? — Yes, and overseer also.
v ^ ' 1446. Have you been much troubled with exhumation either in former years or
at the present time in your parish? — Not more than parishes generally are,:
I believe.
1447. Have you ever found it necessary to employ extra watchmen at high wage3
for the purpose of keeping down the practice ? — Yes, we have in St. James's parish.
1448. I suppose that is no inconsiderable expense ? — On the contrary, il is a very
large expense.
1449. But
SELECT COMMITTEE ON ANATOMY. 121
1449. But in spite of all precautions that can be taken, bodies, I suppose, are Mr.
occasionally removed ?— Yes ; while I was churchwarden, we were obliged to Richard Spike.
raise a wall, which was 16 or 18 feet high ; we were obliged to increase it 1 2 feet, v ~
because with all the vigilance we could use, persons were continually entering the 238M8ay
church-yard.
1450. Where is it situated ?— In the Hampstead road.
1451. Do you believe that the practice still goes on ? — I cannot speak as to my
own knowledge, but I have not the least doubt of it.
1452. I mean with regard to St. James's ? — Yes, for this reason ; we found it did
g^ on, notwithstanding the twelve-feet paling we added to the wall, and as the wind
blew the paling and injured the wall, and as we could not prevent the practice,
rather than the wall should be pulled down by the paling, we took it down.
1453. Suppose any mode could be devised of supplying the dissecting schools with
bodies, so that the practice of exhumation could be superseded ; would it not be
considered as an advantageous thing by the parishioners in general ? — I should think
so ; decidedly so ; for my own part I am sure it would.
1454. What do you think would be the feeling of the parishioners, provided
they were satisfied that it was to be the means of superseding exhumation, about
giving up to the dissecting schools the bodies of those persons who die in the parish
workhouse or infirmary, and who have no friends or relatives to claim them? — 1 do
not think the parishioners would give themselves any trouble to think about it at all ;
I think it would be a matter of perfect indifference to them.
1455. Do you think they would regard it totally with indifference, provided they
were satisfied these were the means of allowing the bodies of their own relatives
and friends to rest in peace ?— Certainly, I should think so.
1456. Do not you think they would be rather pleased and gratified with the
change, provided that was the result? — That is my feeling.
1457. Supposing the dissecting schools, whenever they received a body under
those circumstances from the parish, were to pay the burial fees and the expense
of burying the body, would not that tend materially to relieve the parish funds ?
— Certainly it would.
1458. Would not that the more tend to reconcile them to the proposed change ? —
I think they would want very little reconciling to the thing itself.
1 4/59. From your experience of the feeling of that part of the public which dwells
in Saint James's parish, do you feel satisfied that no material opposition would be
made, at least in that parish, to the introduction of any such measure? — I do.
1460. You do not anticipate any opposition on the part of the parish officers to
(he proposed change? — I cannot say that I ever conversed with them upon the sub-
ject ; but I should say decidedly not.
1461. Is it already the practice in your parish to allow the parish surgeon to
examine the bodies of those who die in the infirmary? — Yes, and has been for years;
there have been lectures given upon them, and it never met with any thing to call
opposition ; some objection was made to its being turned into a lecture room at one
time.
1462. Even supposing in the first instance, there was to be a little opposition
to the measure, do you not think after a short time the public would become recon-
ciled to it?— I do not consider that there would be any opposition.
146J. Is there any thing further you would wish to state to the Committee upon
the subject now before them ? — No.
1464. What is your opinion with respect to the feelings of those who may be con-
sidered as more peculiarly interested in this question ; the feelings of the poor them-
selves?— I think, with regard to their friends, they take very little account of them
after death ; it happens sometimes, it is true, that their friends come forward and
claim them, and seem very much affected and broken-hearted, but the instances of
that kind are very rare ; it has certainly always struck me, that generally when dead,
their friends do not care what becomes of them.
1465. Does it not sometimes happen that relatives or friends are personated by
resurrection men? — I really cannot say, from my own knowledge, but I think so ;
it is done for the purpose of making a profit of them.
1 466. And then they take them away. — Yes.
1467. Do they not sometimes get a sum of money from the parish for the alleged
purpose of burying the bodies? — Sometimes ; but the parish do not always give it,
because they are aware of the trick.
1468. In most cases the parish do not give a sum of money to the persons who
56S. Q want
qj May
1838.
122 MINUTES OF EVIDENCE TAKEN BEFORE
want to take them away for the alleged purpose of burying them ; but bury the
bodies themselves? — Yes, they do.
1469. In many cases, do not relatives simply content themselves with coming
and enquiring whether the parties be dead or not, and having satisfied their
curiosity, they take no further trouble about the matter r — Yes, a great many ;
sometimes when we know the residence of a party, we send to let them know that
such a person is dead ; but they frequently do not give themselves the trouble to
come after them.
1470. In every case, supposing a body to be given up to the dissecting schools,
would you not consider it right that the teacher of the dissecting school should engajre
to give funeral rites and decent burial to the body in the parish from which be received
the body? — I think so for two reasons; in the first place, that persons who would
call themselves relatives, might be affected by knowing a body was uninterred ; and
again the clergyman of the parish would not be deprived of his fees.
1471. You conceive it to be probable, that in the case of people dying in the
workhouses and hospitals, persons come forward and personate the friends of the
party dead, claim the body, receive money from the parish for burying it, and
then do not bury the body, but sell it for dissection ? — I am disposed to think that is
the case very often ; I cannot say that I know it of my own knowledge, but I have
no doubt it is very often done.
W. Lawrence, Esquire, again called in ; and Examined.
W. Lawrence. 1472. WILL you state whether any cases have occurred within your knowledge
— — — S£ * of medical or surgical men having been made liable for damages in civil actions for
injudicious treatment of patients under their care? — Several instances have occurred
of surgeons having been the subject of actions of that kind, in which damages have
been recovered against them.
1473. Those persons have not been considered as escaping liability to such
actions, who have received regular diplomas ? — The cases that I have referred to
are those of persons who had received regular diplomas from the Royal College of
Surgeons of London.
1474. Would you consider it invidious to state the instances? — I will specify two
instances of accidents of the shoulder-joint, in which the surgeons in attendance had
failed to recognize the existence of dislocation, and had consequently omitted to
reduce the dislocated bone; so that the patients would remain crippled for life.
SELECT COMMITTEE ON ANATOMY. 123
LIST OF APPENDIX.
-N° 1— LETTER from College of Physicians, Edinburgh, dated 18th April 1828, to The Right
Honourable Robert Peel, on their having unanimously agreed to petition the Legislature on
the subject of granting facilities to the prosecution of Anatomy - - . p. 124
N" 2.— Letter from the Chairman of a Committee of the Royal College of Physicians, dated Edinburgh,
26th May 1828, to Henry Warburton, Esq. in explanation of some particulars in the fore-
going Letter p- 125
N° 3. — Report of the Committee appointed by the Royal College of Surgeons of Edinburgh, to inquire
into the state of the teaching of practical Anatomy in the Medical and Surgical Schools of
that City ibid.
N" 4. — Answers by Dr. Jeffray, Professor of Anatomy in the University of Glasgow, to Queries
respecting the difficulties in procuring subjects for Dissection - - - - p. 12$
N" 5. — Communication from Dr. Burns, Professor of Surgery at Glasgow - - - p. 129
N" 6. — Letter from Mr. Hodgson, Surgeon, Birmingham, dated May 6th, 1828, to the Right Honour-
able Robert Peel - - - - - - - - - - -p. 130
N° 7. — Letter from Mr. Estlin, Surgeon, dated Bristol, May 1st, 1828, relative to the difficulties of
procuring Subjects for Anatomical Studies -----_. p, ^1
N" 8. — Extracts from a Letter of Mr. Turner, Lecturer on Anatomy and Physiology, dated Man-
chester, April30, 1828, to Henry Warburton, Esq. - p. 132
N° 9. — Letter from Messrs. Barnes and James, Surgeons to the Devon and Exeter Hospital, to Henry
Warburton, Esq. dated Exeter, April 19th, 1828 ..... ibid.
N* 10— Letter from Dr. Traill, of Liverpool, addressed to Henry Warburton, Esq. M. P. Chairman
of the Committee of Inquiry into the state of Anatomical Studies in these Kingdoms,
dated May 1, 1828 -----.--...p. 133
. N"ll. — Regulations of the Court of Examiners of the Society of Apothecaries, London; applicable
to persons who commenced attendance on Lectures since 1 February 1828 - p. 134
N" 12. — Regulations of the Council of the Royal College of Surgeons in London, relating to the
Age and professional Education of Candidates for the Diploma of the College - p. 135
N° 13. — Administration Generate des Hopitaux Hospices et Secours a Domicile, de Paris p. 136
N° 14. — Abstract of Returns from Anatomical Schools --.---. p. 138
N" 15. — Number of Fellows and Licentiates of the College of Physicians, London, admitted in the
year 1827 ibid.
N° 16. — Guy's Hospital ; -^Number of Patients admitted during the year 1827 - - p. 139
N" 17. — St. Thomas's Hospital;— Number of Patients who have died within the last ten years ibid.
N° 18. — Returns from the different Parishes and Workhouses within the City of London and Out-
Parishes - - - - - - - - - - - - -p. 140
N* 19. — Communication from Mr. Brookes, dated Theatre of Anatomy, Blenheim Street, 10th No-
vember 1823, to Sir Astley P. Cooper, hart. ....... p. 143
N° 20. — Communication from Mr. John Watson, Secretary of Apothecaries Hall, dated May 14th,
1828 p. 144
N° 2i. — Case extracted from the 2d vol. of Term Reports of the Court of King's Bench, the King
v. Lynn p. 145
N° 22. — The King against Cundick, undertaker, for selling and disposing of an executed Felon to be
dissected; extracted from Reports of Cases, ccc. - p. 146
N" 23. — Extracts from a Report of the Trial of John Davies and others, of Warrington, for obtaining
the Body of Jane Fairclough, which had been taken from the Chapel Yard at Hill Cliff,
in October 1827 : Tried at Lancaster, at the Spring Assizes 182S ... p. 147
N° 24. — Return from the Parish of St. George, Hanover Square, of the Number of Persons who died
in the Workhouse, and were buried by the Parish, or by their Friends, during the last ten
Years . - p. 150
APPENDIX TO REPORT FROM
APPENDIX.
Appendix, N' I.
LETTER from College of Physicians, Edinburgh, dated 18th April 1828, to the
Appendix, N* I. Right Honourable Robert Peel.
Sir, Edinburgh, 18th April 1828.
THE Royal College of Physicians of Edinburgh, having agreed unanimously to petition
the Legislature on the subject of granting facilities to the prosecution of Anatomy,
request me, in absence of their president, and as convener of a Committee for that purpose,
briefly to mention to you the modes by which, as they conceive, the wished-for relief may
be effected. They are aware of the prudence and caution required, in discussing the matter
before the public ; and accordingly in their petitions to be presented to both Houses of
Parliament, by my Lord Melville and Mr. William Dundas, have simply alluded to their
conviction of the practicability of devising adequate remedies. It is to those, they now
venture confidentially to solicit your attention, under the hope, that, should the appointment
of a Committee of Inquiry, receive the sanction of His Majesty's Government, you will
recommend them for consideration, as proceeding from a society to whom the magnitude of
the evils complained of, is necessarily well known, and by whom a good deal of anxiety has
been long entertained as to the means of obviating or lessening them.
j. — The repeal or mitigation of the law under which the possessor of a dead body,
though obtained by purchase or otherwise, from persons with whom he is in no degree
connected, and of whose conduct, supposing it criminal, quoad the body, he is entirely
ignorant, may be subjected to fine or punishment, as a perpetrator in, or encourager of
their delinquency.
2. — The abolition or restriction of the power assumed by various petty officers, to
break open boxes and packages in which it is alleged dead bodies are conveyed from
one place to another, and also unnecessary intrusion into premises in which for the pur-
poses of professional education, dead bodies are usually or freqently contained.
3. — Authorizing officers of Excise or Customs, on proper application, to grant permits
for the transportation, debarkment and conveyance of dead bodies, liable to examination,
if judged requisite, so as to prevent smuggling anything contraband.
4. — Making it competent to municipal and other functionaries, under certain regula-
tions, to grant for dissection, to recognized and established teachers, the bodies of persons
found dead on the roads and streets, in rivers and canals, or the sea shore, in almshouses
and elsewhere, if not claimed within hours from the period of discovery ;
as also the bodies of foreigners, strangers and others, dying at inns, lodging-houses
and public institutions, in the absence of friends, and without visible means of defray-
ing funeral expenses.
5. — -Legalizing the sale and purchase, or bequest during life, of dead bodies, on the
common principles affecting property.
6. — The repeal of that part of the criminal law by which, from a just indignation at
the commission of murder, the bodies of those convicted of it were given for public
dissection ; the usual, though it may be observed, effect of which is, to bring odium and
abhorrence on an essentially beneficial process.
7. — Familiarizing mankind to the utility and advantage of anatomical inquiry, by
enforcing the examination of the bodies of all who die suddenly and without obvious
cause ; an enactment similar to what is recognized in England, though not so fully as
is suitable, and the benefits of which, from the want of coroner's inquest, are totally
unknown in Scotland, unless in cases of criminal prosecution.
The College are humbly of opinion, that all of these proposed modes are practicable, and
that their combined operation would be sufficient for the purposes of science and instruction.
I have the honour to be, Sir,
Your most obedient humble servant,
Jlex. Monro.
The Right Honourable Robert Peel,
Secretary for the Home Department, Sac. &c. &c
SELECT COMMITTEE ON ANATOMY. 125
Appendix, N* 2.
LETTER from the Chairman of a Committee of the Royal College of Physicians, N„
dated Edinburgh, 26th May 1828, to Henry Warburton, Esq. in explanation of "__
some particulars in the foregoing Letter.
Sir, Edinburgh, 26th May 182S.
AS Chairman of a Committee of the Royal College of Physicians, appointed this day, to
return an answer to your letter to Dr. Monro, of date the 21st current, I beg to inform you,
that the College wish to offer a short explanation of the 4th and 5th suggestions made by
Dr. Monro, in his letter to Mr. Peel, of the 18th ult.
It may probably be thought, that in the case of alms-houses and hospitals, it may be
left to the managers of such institutions to fix the time when the appropriation of unclaimed
bodies may he authorized ; but, as this is the source from which the greatest expectations of
a supply of subjects, without recourse to the revolting practice of exhumation, may be enter-
tained, the College consider it of the first importance, that, after a certain time has elapsed,
the managers of all such institutions should be authorized to grant, for the said purposes,
the bodies of all persons unclaimed, and whose interment would necessarily be a charge on
the institutions from which they had derived benefit.
In regard to the suggestion of legalizing the sale of bodies, the College are anxious, that,
if their proposal be favourably considered, it should of course be understood to apply only
to the case of individuals selling, during their lifetime, the right and disposal of their own
bodies after death, and receiving the money themselves. Tor, if the sale of the bodies of
relations, connections orotheis, were authorized, the College think, that a greater inducement
than the law ought to sanction, would be thereby held out, among the numerous needy and
profligate individuals in the lower ranks of society, to the neglect of sick persons, and might
even lead to the actual commission of murder.
With these explanations, the College approve perfectly of the different suggestions con-
tained in Dr. Monro's letter; and are quite willing to allow it to appear in the Report of the
Committee, of which you are chairman, as the result of the best consideration which they
have been able to give to the subject.
I have the honour to be, Sir,
Your most obedient humble servant,
Th. Spens, m. d.
Henry Warburton, Esq. M. P. London.
Appendix, N" 3.
REPORT of the Committee appointed by the Royal College of Surgeons of Edinburgh,
to inquire into the State of the teaching of Practical Anatomy in the Medical and
Surgical Schools of that City.
THE Committee conceive it is generally known to the College, that the introduction of
Practical Anatomy as a regular branch of study by medical students, may be regarded as of
recent origin in Edinburgh." Forty years ago, in "Edinburgh, there was no teacher of Anatomy
besides the Professor of Anatomy in the University ; there was no class of practical Anatomy,
and your Committee believe they may state, that no bodies were dissected, except those
used by Dr. Monro for his demonstrations. Soon after this period the study of practical
Anatomy was introduced, and has since gradually and rapidly advanced in progress. This
seems at first to have arisen from the desire of the students to attain knowledge in this
department, and from the zeal of individuals who established private schools of Anatomy,
in promoting its study ; and more recently from the College of Surgeons having rendered it
indispensable that all those who apply for the diploma of surgeon, shall have attended a
course of practical Anatomy ; from the Senatus Academicus having partially introduced it
as a branch of study required in those who are examined for medical degrees; and from
the public boards requiring it in candidates for the medical offices in the public service.
The Committee conceive that they are justified in stating, that the College of Surgeons
had long been impressed with the advantages which would be derived from the study of
practical Anatomy, by all those to whom they gave diplomas, but were deterred from
enforcing it by the feeling that it would be unjust and inexpedient to do so, while doubts
remained, whether it might be in the power of students to obtain opportunities of com-
plying with the regulation.
At present there are, besides the public school of the Professor of Anatomy in the Uni-
versity, four Fellows of the College of Surgeons lecturers on this subject, whose courses
may in some respects be considered as public; as certificates of attendance on them are
received as qualifications for examination by three universities in Scotland, for the degree
of Doctor of Medicine, and by the different colleges of surgeons in Great Britain, in those
seeking their diplomas. All these teachers have classes in practical Anatomy.
With regard to the number of students attending practical Anatomy, the Committee may
observe, that they conceive the medical students in Edinburgh, during the last two years,
may be calculated at about moo annually.
568. Q 3 There
Appendix, N° 3.
1>C-
APPENDIX TO KliPOUT I'UOM
There were registered, at Surgeons Hall, for llie purpose of obtaining qualifications lo be
Appendix, N 3, . , f , \ su|.,,ica| diploma of the College of Surgeons:—
(continued.)
examined for the surgical diploma of the College of Surgeons:—
in Session 18126 and 1827 700
In d* 1827 and 1828 733
j\ umber in the two years ------ 2)1,432
Average of two years - - - - - - ?i6
There were matriculated at the University, of Students qualifying for ihe medical degree,
01 studying for a surgical diploma: —
In Session 1826-1827 - 858
In Session 1827-1828 - 765
Total in two years ------ 2)1,623
Average of two years ------ gxl
But as there are a number who matriculate at the University, and do not register at
Surgeons Hall, and also some who register at Surgeons Hall, but do not matriculate, the whole
number of medical students must be regarded as greater than indicated by either of these
data. The Committee have not been able to ascertain the exact addition that should be made
on this account, but are satisfied that the whole number of medical students is about 900.
The Committee have not been able to ascertain precisely the number of these students
who have attended courses of practical Anatomy, chiefly from not having been able to
learn the number studying this department in the University, as Dr. Monro has politely
declined to give them any information, as he has himself communicated with Mr. Peel; but
from the register of the College of Surgeons, and information given them by the other
lecturers on Anatomy, they conceive they may state the number at about 380. They would
remark, however, that a part of this number must have consisted of students who are not
necessarily required by any regulation to attend these courses, and who have not been
actually engaged in dissection, but have wished to continue their improvement in Anatomy
by the'opportunity of witnessing the anatomical investigations carried on by others in the
schools. The Committee, from their inquiries, have reason to believe, that the number of
anatomical subjects used in Edinburgh during this last winter, has been about 150, and that
they have, on an average, cost the teachers about 9/. or to /. each, but have been supplied
to the students at about 8 /. each.
From this statement it would appear, that the cultivation of practical anatomy has for a
series of years gone on increasing in Edinburgh, and that the opportunities of prosecuting
it have also increased in a great degree. Indeed, the Committee are led to believe, from
every thing they know, that of late years the opportunities of dissection to students have
not been less, nor the expense greater, here than in London.
At the same time it is obvious, that the supply of bodies for anatomical dissection has not
increased in proportion to the demand, and is not so ample as desirable or even necessary,
that it is to a certain degree precarious, and is only obtained at a greater expense than is
convenient for the student to afford. So much has this been felt, that the teachers of Ana-
tomy have for some time past considered it as necessary to submit to a considerable
pecuniary sacrifice, in order to place the means of prosecuting their anatomical studies
within the reach of the students. This leads your Committee to attempt to form some
estimate with regard to the supply of subjects which may be regarded as desirable or suffi-
cient to carry on the anatomical education of the medical school in Edinburgh.
Under the present regulations of the different universities and colleges which grant degrees
and diplomas in physic and surgery, and of the boards superintending the medical depart-
ments of the army and navy, the Committee are led to conclude, that of the 900 students
of medicine annually resorting to Edinburgh, about 300 annually will necessarily require to
attend courses of practical Anatomy; and they are of opinion, that in order to enable them
to do so with the advantage intended, it is desirable that the supply of anatomical subjects
should be at the rate of at least one body for each student. This estimate of the number
of bodies required, is much lower than one they have received from an experienced anato-
mical teacher; but from communication with other teachers, and from their own considera-
tion, they are satisfied, that such a supply as they have stated, if in good condition, and
carefully used, would be sufficient for a fair elementary instruction of the students of Ana-
tomy, including the bodies required for the public demonstrations of the lecturers on
Anatomy and on Surgery.
Your Committee is by no means satisfied, that any great advantage would be obtained
from the supply of bodies being very great, and the price very small. On the contrary,
from what has come to their knowledge, they are inclined to believe, that in schools where
this is the case, although some diligent students take advantage of the opportunity for
Anatomical study which is thus afforded, a great proportion of students are liable to become
careless and negligent of dissection ; and although a great number of bodies are consumed)
yet the same advantage is not obtained from them, as from the diligent dissection Which
is performed in situations where they are procured less easily, and are of some value. Could
the supply of bodies now suggessted be procured here at about 5/. each, the Committee
conceive that every purpose desired would be served.
While- the study of practical Anatomy was followed by students here only to a limited
extent,
SELECT COMMITTEE ON ANATOMY. 127
extent, the small number of subjects required was procured in Edinburgh and its vicinity, Appendix, N# 3,
and the price was three or tour guineas. As the school of Anatomy extended, and a greater (continued.)
supply was required, the violation of churchyards was more frequently detected, and the
feelings or the populace were often irritated by the audacity, carelessness and recklessness
of the degraded and ungovernable class of men who are necessarily employed in the occupa-
tion of procuring bodies, and whose numbers were considerably increased. These circum-
stances roused the feelings of the people, and increased the vigilance to prevent these out-
rages by which the supply here was rendered much more difficult and deficient. After-
wards for some time, a very considerable supply was obtained from London, though at an
increased expense. The Committee have reason to believe, that this new demand for
bodies had the effect of diminishing, in some degree, the supply of the Anatomical teachers
in London ; it diminished, to a certain extent, the dependence of the body snatchers on
these teachers, and dissentions arose between them and among the body snatchers them-
selves. The difficulties of procuring subjects in London were by this at the time much in-
creased ; a stop was put almost entirely to this source of supply to Edinburgh, and obstacles
were produced to the supply of the London school, the effects of which Your Committee be-
lieve have not yet ceased to operate. Lately, the supply of subjects in Edinburgh has been
procured chiefly from a distance, and a considerable part of it from Ireland, where, it seems,
bodies can be procured more easily, and with less outrage to the public feeling than in other
parts of the empire. It has been stated, that this new demand for bodies has had the effect
of raising the price of them in the Dublin schools; but Your Committee believe, from all
they have ever heard, that if no illiberal interference be interposed, the supply required
from Dublin by other schools might go on without any real injury being inflicted on the
Anatomical school there. If attempts be made to interrupt it, considerable temporary in-
convenience it is probable will necessarily be produced in Edinburgh ; and Your Committee
are convinced that the facilities of obtaining bodies in Dublin itself, will also be most
materially diminished and impeded.
It is obvious, that in the present state of the law, and of popular feeling, it would be dif-
ficult, if not impossible, to obtain the supply required in Edinburgh from the town or the
vicinity. The obstacles do not now arise from a prejudice against opening dead bodies;
for this has rapidly declined, and permission can in general be obtained by medical men,
without difficulty, to inspect bodies for the purpose of ascertaining the nature of disease.
It seems to arise from those feelings of family and domestic attachment which exist in
a remarkable degree in this country, being continued to the objects of them even after
death. Hence those feelings of respect and care for the remains of relations and connec-
tions, and of horror at their" being disturbed or treated with indignity, which so universally
prevail, and are evinced in many of the customs and habits, and even, it is believed, in some
of the laws of the country. They have led to the most jealous precautions against the
practices of disinterment, which are often taken with much trouble, and at a considerable
expense, and without much regard to the legality of the means which are employed for the
purpose.
The Committee ara aware that it is not easy to suggest any remedy which could have an
immediate and complete effect in removing the difficulties and evils complained of. If the
bodies of persons who die friendless, and without any one to care for them, (the number of
which in the present state of society is unfortunately but too great in large towns) could be
procured for Anatomical purposes, a full supply for all useful ends would be obtained. It
has been slated, that in Edinburgh there are from 400 to 500 buried annually at the public
<xpen>e, winch would more than suffice for what is wanted here. At present, however, they
are protected by the precautions which are taken to protect the remains of others by their
surviving friends ; nor is it easy to suggest any means by which this source of supply could
be rendered available. The deaths take place'in institutions under the superintendence of
extensive, and sometimes, popular bodies of directors, the members of which, from their
own prejudices, and from the unpopularity which would for a time attend it, might be un-
willing to adopt any measure to attain this object. How far it could be attained by any
legislative enactment, we know not ; but it might, perhaps, be promoted were it to receive
the countenance of the members of Government or of the Legislature. It has been sug-
gested, that this source of supply might be rendered available, in a great degree, by distinct
places being allotted for depositing the bodies of those who are buried at the public
expense. By this, the infringement of the laws in the present state would not be altogether
prevented, but the Committee are convinced, and it is believed it is becoming understood
by the public at large, that the greater the facility which is given of obtaining the bodies
of the worthless, and those who die without friends, the less will the feelings of the respect-
able part of the community, which we cannot but respect and sympathize with, be out-
raged, and the less will be the crime and demoralization which are to be deplored, as at
present arising from the manner in which the supplies for the Anatomical schools are ne-
cessarily procured, and which is one of the most disagreeable circumstances connected with
the cultivation of Anatomy. "
Another obstacle which has frequently impeded and interruped the supply of bodies for
Anatomical purposes, has been the officious, and, it is believed, sometimes unwarranted
interference of magistrates and public officers, where bodies have been detected, or sus-
pected to be concealed, whose powers in such cases are not well defined, or at least not
generally understood. These interferences have usually only the effect of obstructing the
progress of medical education, and of unnecessarily exasperating popular feeling and preju-
dice, without diminishing the evils or crimes which they are intended to prevent or punish.
568. y 4 Were
128 APPENDIX TO REPORT 1ROM
Appendix N" •> Were the powers of magistrates and public officers defined and limited to cases in vvliich ap-
(contimud.) ' plication is officially made to them by relations or connections, and their officious and unwar-
ranted interference prevented and discountenanced, this obstacle might, it is conceived,
be in a great measure removed.
The Committee beg to state, that the (in their opinion) barbarous and inefficient law
by which the bodies of persons executed for murder are given for dissection, has not at all
contributed to the progress of Anatomy, but on the contrary has rather tended to increase
the prejudices against dissection. The Committee feel doubtful, whether the repeal of that
law would produce any material effect in diminishing the obstacles to Anatomical study ;
but it might be beneficial by evincing in the least objectional manner the desire of the
Legislature to promote the cultivation of Anatomy. Even were the bodies of all executed
felons and of suicides to be given for dissection, the Commiitee are happy to think that in
Scotland this would do little or nothing to advance the study of Anatomy, and, indeed,
they are satisfied it would tend to impede it.
The Committee have only to add, that they conceive it would be attended with the best
effects, were the different schools of Anatomy, and the different teachers of the same schools
to become convinced that they cannot benefit, but on the contrary, must injure not only
their own interests, but those of science, by any ill-judged or illiberal competition, or by
attempts to interfere with the operations of each other; and to be also convinced, of what
the Committee are satisfied is true, that the interests of the different schools and individuals
in them, are best promoted by a good understanding with each other, and by whatever
tends to promote the success of all who are engaged in the useful and honourable task of
teaching and studying Anatomy.
In name and by appointment of the Royal College of Surgeons, Edinburgh,
Edinburgh, May 2d, 1828. David Maclagan, M. d. President.
Appendix, N° 4.
Appendix N" 4. ANSWERS by Dr. Je(fray, Professor of Anatomy in the University of Glasgow, to
. ' Queries respecting the difficulties in procuring subjects for dissection.
Glasgow, May 26, 1828.
Q. 1st. WHAT was the number of students of Anatomy at Glasgow last session? — ■
A. Two hundred and forty-five in the University. The number attending private lec-
lurers not known ; perhaps forty or fifty.
Q. 2nd. What the number of bodies dissected ? — A. Thirty in the University, of which
a part were for the public demonstrations during lecture; the rest, the greater part, were for
the students in the dissecting-room.
Q. 2,rd. What number of subjects would such a number of students require? — A. The
students attend the Anatomy class, two, generally three, sometimes four years. They do
not all dissect in one year. The number who attended the dissecting-rooms last year was
seventy. There would have been more, could subjects have been procured. We wish to
manage matters thus : — A subject for the muscles is given to four or five; two of these dis-
sect on one side, and two on the other ; the fifth, generally young, reads the descriptions
of the parts in some text book, and assists. The second subject is for the blood-vessels;
and as the students shift places, he who had a lower extremity before, gets a superior one
now. The third subject is for the nerves and absorbents; and the fourth, for the viscera,
and a more minute examination of connection and relative position. So that, while every
one of the four gets a subject, he actually has the opportunity of examining four, all of
which are not long in hand, and of course the less offensive ; at the same time, leisure is
afforded to examine every thing minutely, and to fix the whole in the memory. Taking
250 as the average number of students of Anatomy at this University, in times of peace,
(toward the end of the late war there were upwards of 33 more), and that only one-half of
these dissect, during one session of their curriculum, the number of subjects required would
be 125, besides those (generally from eight to ten) required for the public demonstration
and lectures in the class, by the professor.
Q. 4th. What are the difficulties to the procuring subjects ? — A. The general and natural
aversion fell against the dissection either of ourselves or of our relations ; the association,
as the law now stands, of the idea of punishment for crime with that of being dissected ;
the institution of societies, most of them private and unauthorized, and the erection of
watch-houses for the protection of burying-grounds ; together with the practice, now com-
mon, of burying the coffins in cast-iron safes, till putrefaction be far gone; the severity of
the law against those who disinter the dead, or have in their possession dead bodies for, dis-
section; the jealousy and interested interference of rival teachers; the officious interruption
given by the police to the conveyance of bodies by land, and the still more irrational, but
troublesome opposition, given by the officers of the customs, &c. to the importation of them
by sea.
Q. 51/1. What are the remedies to be suggested? — A. After thinking on the subject
for many years, and considering carefully all the plans proposed, I have always come to this
conclusion ; — that the public mind would not be satisfied, were those caught in the fact of
disinterring or conveying subjects permitted to go unpunished ; but uueoncerned officious
interference might with propriety be discountenanced, if not restrained. That the law,
now so severe against those detected in having a body for dissection in their possession,
should
SELECT COMMITTEE ON ANATOMY.
29
should be mitigated, which may quietly be done by legalizing the purchase of subjects. Appendix, N* 4,
That, though all the criminals hanged in Great Britain were to be given Cor dissection, the (continued.)
supply would be, and long may it be, altogether inadequate to the absolutely necessary de- ■
mand. That they who pay so little attention to their relatives when they are alive, as to
allow them to die in an hospital or poor's house, and be buried at the public expense, have
little reason, or indeed right to make any noise about them, or claim any interest in them,
when they are dead ; and of those who die in this predicament, and are unclaimed, there
are in every large town more than enough to answer the necessary supply.
James Jeffray, m. d.
To H. Warburton, Esq. Professor of Anatomy, &,c.
Chairman of the Committee on Anatomy, ike.
Appendix, N° 5.
COMMUNICATION from Dr. Burns, Professor of Surgery at Glasgow.
THE medical school in Scotland is on a different footing from that in England. In Appendix, N° 5.
England, there is no medical seminary connected with the national establishment ; but the •
different classes, particularly those of Anatomy and Surgery, are generally attached to an
hospital. In Scotland, the public and recognized school is within the universities, subject
to academical regulation ; but lectures are also delivered by many private individuals in the
way they think best. Should any direct supply of subjects be practicable, this distinction
would be of importance.
In the University of Glasgow, Anatomy and Surgery are taught during a session of six
months, by two distinct professors. The difficulty of obtaining a supply for these classes
has been great; many of the subjects procured this last winter were children, and of the
adults, many were in a very offensive state.
Confining myself to my own department, I would state, that for three years 1 have been
supplied from the anatomical dissecting-room by the demonstrator, with four bodies each
session, for the purpose of exhibiting the operations. For this scanty supply I willingly
paid a high price (thirty guineas;) but I have received notice from him that he cannot con-
tinue to provide for mc; and how the class is to be conducted next winter, should the
present difficulty continue, I do not see. Even if the small supply I have hitherto obtained
were still procured,[it is evident that I can do no more than merely show the operations, and
explain, not very agreeably, the parts concerned ; but can afford no adequate means of im-
provement to the student himself. In France, on the contrary, there is not only an ample
supply of subjects for the study of Anatomy, but also for the performance of operations
b}' the students themselves.
Besides the difficulty and often impossibility of procuring subjects, we are also liable to
severe penalties for having them in our possession. The traffic itself is held to be illegal,
and a teacher found with a body in his possession is held to be guilty of stealing that
body. The fact of possession is considered as proof of his having been concerned in pro-
curing it. There is then the strange contradiction exhibited, which is met with in no other
civilized country, of the king appointing a man to an office, the duties of which he cannot
perform without infringing the law; and of a man being punishable, if he practise medicine
or surgery without due education, whilst the prosecution of that very education is, to all in-
tents and purposes, declared by the statute book to be illegal.
With regard to the remedy for this last evil, little difficulty, it is apprehended, can
arise. If the crime be declared to consist in stealing the body, and not in resetting it,
every teacher and student then is safe, nor can I conceive that the public would complain.
Greater difficulty must be met with in making a provision for teaching Anatomy and
Surgeiy. The proposals naturally may be divided into those which are permissive, and those
which are imperative.
Amongst the first, the most essential and important is the proposal of legalizing the sale
of bodies. Even if no body should ever be then sold, the mere circumstance of such a
sale being legal would be of great importance, and might pave the way for greater benefits.
It would, together with the proposed alteration with regard to the responsibility, make the
teacher quite safe; and the traffic being no longer essentially illegal, it would put an end
to all officious interference, and the stopping of subjects in transitu.
Another permissive proposition of great importance would be, vesting the managers of
infirmaries and hospitals with a power of giving for dissection the bodies of those who died
without having any relations to take charge of their funeral, and vesting the same power
in overseers of the poor with regard to the bodies of unclaimed paupers. I am aware that
few managers and overseers would be disposed at first to exercise this power, nor would it
be prudent in teachers to press them; but it would enable them to allow the removal of
bodies without observation, which at present they dare not do, owing to the law, even if
popular feeling were in their favour. The authority or warrant of a magistrate might be
rendered necessary, which would be a mean of preventing a precipitate and rash operation
of the permissive regulation. I am convinced, that was this scheme prudently put in
practice, and not too soon acted on, it might come into full operation without any observa-
tion from the public. It is merely a result of the proposition of legalising the sale of
bodies, and should that proposal be adopted, and this additional one agreed to, this latter
56S. II part
i3o APPENDIX TO REBOOT FROM
Appendix, N° 5, part of the proposal could be included in the general permission, without attracting mucli
{continued.) notice.
. The other class of proposals, or those which are imperative, would, though more efficient,
meet with more opposiiion. The teacher would have a right to demand the bodies of
paupers who had no near relative, and of all who were not claimed within a certain time;
whereas, by the permissive regulation, he should have no right, but should be dependent on
the discretion of overseers and managers of hospitals. In all probability, the permissive
plan would prove quite sufficient.
John Burns, m. d.
To H. Warburton, Esq. Professor of Surgery in the University of Glasgow.
Chairman of the Committee on Anatomy.
Appendix, N* 6.
,• xjop LETTER from Mr. Hodgson, Surgeon, Birmingham, dated May 6th, 1828,
Appcn"'x' to the Right Honourable Robert Peel.
My Dear Sir, Birmingham, May 6th, 1828.
I have received a letter from Dr. Somerville, requesting me to supply the Committee of
the House of Commons appointed to investigate the difficulties of procuring subjects for
dissection, through one of its Members, with any suggestions that have occurred to me as
to the best mode of remedying those difficulties, as well as with certain information with
regard to the state of Anatomical pursuits in this town, which induces me to take the liberty
of troubling you with the following communication :
I am convinced that the feelings of the public can never be reconciled to the practices of
dissection, so long as dissection continues to form part of the punishment for murder.
The feeling, I really believe, in a great measure arises from the imputation which appears to
be cast upon the character of the deceased, in consequence of his remains being subjected
to that treatment which the law employs as a part of the punishment for the most heinous
crime. I believe, therefore, that an alteration of the law on this subject is essential to recon-
cile the public to any facilities which may be afforded in procuring the only means of
cultivating the most important of all the branches of medical and surgical knowledge.
Dissection being abolished as a part of the punishment for murder, I take the liberty
of submitting to you the following, which, after much consideration, appears to me the
mode by which the necessary supply of subjects for Anatomical purposes can be procured,
with the least violation of private feelings. It is very similar to the plans pursued for the
same purposes in some parts of the Continent; only I have avoided including the bodies of
persons dying in prisons, because it appears to me very desirable to separate as much as
possible the practice of dissection from punishment.
IT shall be lawful for the overseer of the poor, or his deputy, in any parish in Great
Britain, to deliver to the surgeon of any public hospital or workhouse, or to any public
teacher of Anatomy, requiring the same for the purposes of anatomical investigation, the
dead body of any pauper who shall have died in the workhouse, or in any public hospital in
his parish, which shall not have been claimed by any of the friends of the deceased, and
which requires to be interred at the expense of the parish, under the following regulations :
1st. — The surgeon shall sign a bond, acknowledging the receipt of the dead body,
and engaging to return the same within three weeks from the delivery thereof.
2dly. — The surgeon, on receiving the dead body, shall pay to the overseer, or his
deputy, to be devoted to the funds of the parish.
3dly. — The overseer of the poor, or his deputy, shall, on the said dead body being
returned, give to the surgeon a receipt for the same, and shall, within two days from
the date ot the said receipt, cause the dead body to be interred in the same manner as
if the said dead body had not been subjected to anatomical investigation.
4thly. — It shall not be lawful for the overseer of the poor, or his deputy, to deliver
to any surgeon the dead body of any pauper as aforesaid, if it shall happen that the
said pauper shall have expressed to the overseer, or his deputy, or in the presence of any
two competent witnesses, his reluctance that his remains shall be employed as
aforesaid.
5thly. — Any overseer of the poor, or his deputy, or any surgeon or teacher of Ana-
tomy, who shall violate any of these regulations, shall be liable to a fiue of
to be recovered, upon oath, by an order from any of His Majesty's justices of the
peace.
In reply to some inquiries mentioned in Dr. Somerville's letter, I beg to state, that in
Birmingham there are between eighty and ninety medical practitioners, and about forty
students. There is one anatomical lecturer, (Mr. Cox) who informs me that about twenty-
five persons attended his lectures last winter, fourteen of whom were new pupils, the re-
mainder were established practitioners, or non-professional attendants. The number of
hodies dissected was eight. From inquiries that I have made, I have reason to believe that
the workhouse in this town would afford more than four times that number of bodies, ac-
cording to the plan that I have mentioned. Those employed last winter were, I believe,
procured
SELECT COMMITTEE ON ANATOMY. 131
procured in the usual manner, by exhumation ; and the discovery of this practice Mas caused
considerable commotion and distress to the inhabitants of some of the neighbouring villages.
Indeed, I am convinced that the occasional discovery of this practice causes far more annoy-
ance to public feeling than could be produced by the adoption of a plan similar to that
which I have detailed in the former part of this letter.
I have the honour to be, my dear Sir, your most obedient and faithful servant,
J. Hodsrson.
Appendix, N° 7.
LETTER from Mr. Estlin, Surgeon, dated Bristol May 1st, 1828. Appendix, N° 7.
Sir, Bristol, May 1st, 1828.
IN compliance with your request that I should send you some remarks relative to the
difficulties of procuring subjects for Anatomical studies, I proceed to make a few observa-
tions upon the points to which my attention has been directed.
at. — With respect to " the opportunities of carrying on Dissections in Bristol :"
From the difficulty of procuring subjects, these opportunities are very limited here, as
they are every where else. The desire of acquiring Anatomical knowledge among the
medical students is great; and could an adequate supply of bodies be procured, without the
hazard and expense at present existing, the consequence would be most beneficial in faci-
litating their education, and in rendering it more complete.
2tf. — " The number of Pupils, and names of the Anatomical Teachers in Bristol:"
There are only two dissecting rooms with appropriate lectures ; they are under the direc-
tion of Dr.'s Wallis and Riley, and a Mr. Clark ; the average number of pupils attending
these lectures may be about sixteen at each school.
3d. — " The number of Bodies used:"
Probably not more than three in a season are procured by each lecturer. Two courses of
lectures are given in the winter, and to render a course complete, four subjects are
requisite. For the lecturers then at the two schools, sixteen bodies should be had. A sup-
ply of subjects for dissection is also necessary for the students as well as for the lecturers;
for them not less than eight or ten should be provided at each school.
It ought however to be known, that it is not for Anatomical schools alone that an easy
supply of subjects should be procurable; — surgeons during every period of their professional
lives, require opportunities of occasional dissection ; and many, when first settled in prac-
tice, before their engagements become numerous, would devote much time in perfecting
themselves in this important study, were they favoured with the opportunity. To speak
individually, I can truly say, that some of the most valuable part of the Anatomical know-
ledge which I possess, was acquired after I had completed my studies in London and
Edinburgh, and had established myself in practice in this city. It was however at much
pergonal risk, and the hazard of reputation, that I prosecuted these important pursuits; being
obliged to go out with other professional friends similarly engaged, to procure bodies from
burying grounds. Every surgeon ought to be able, at any time, to procure bodies for dissec-
tion at a moderate expense, and without the present evils of illegal exhumation.
4th. — " The difficulties of obtaining bodies :"
These are the same here probably as in other places. Subjects are occasionally had
from London at a great price; to avoid this, and to procure the bodies in a stale more fit
for dissection, young men generally dig them up themselves, at the risk of their lives, their
health, and their credit in society.
$th. — " Remedies I would suggest:"
The remedy which has always appeared to me most natural and most easy is, that
surgeons, under certain restrictions, should be allowed to have for dissections the bodies of
persons dying in public institutions (such as hospitals, poor-houses, prisons, &c.) who have
been supported by the public, who have no friends whatever to claim them after their
decease to attend them to the grave, or to have their feelings pained by such a disposition
of the bodies. In every town where there is an hospital, I believe, a moderate proportion
of those of this description who die there, would be amply sufficient for the supply of the
town and neighbourhood.
I do not pretend to advise the detail of any plan, but I should think no difficulty would
exist in the arrangement. A certain moderate sum might be paid to the hospitals; refer-
ences as to the respectability of the parties applying for bodies might be required, &c. &,c.
The sentence of dissection after execution for murder, I have always considered a most
unfortunate and unnecessary bar to the progress of Anatomical studies, by the prejudice
thus encouraged against them.
I am, Sir,
Your obedient and respectful servant,
To H. Warburton, Esq. John Bishop Estlin.
Chairman of the Committee on Anatomy.
568. R 3
1;Vi APPENDIX TO KBPOIW FROM
Appendix, N° 8.
Appendix, N° 8. EXTRACTS from a Letter oF Mr. Turner, Lecturer on Anatomy and Physiology,
_1_ dated Manchester, April 30, 1828, to Henry Warburton, Esq.
Sir, April 30, 1828.
I Have delivered lectures on Anatomy and Physiology for the last six years, and during
the fust three or four seasons I was tolerably well supplied with the means of giving prac-
tical instruction in these important branches of medical and surgical education; but of late
we have had extreme difficulty in obtaining subjects. As, however, we had undertaken to
supply the means of dissection, we have been obliged to pay an exorbitant price, and to
sanction such practices as are very repugnant to our feelings; but the evil has shown itself
in the deplorable circumstance, that for want of pecuniary means, some students have been
under the necessity of resting satisfied with mere oral instruction, assisted by demonstrations
in the public lectures.
I shall now reply to the points on which you wish to obtain information ; but with respect
to the first, viz. " the opportunity of carrying on dissection in Manchester," it has already
been sufficiently dwelt on. In reply to the second point, " the number of pupils attending
the dissecting rooms during the present winter," I beg to state, that there are from seventy
to eighty pupils in the two anatomical establishments ; one of them under my own direction,
the other under that of Mr. Jordan. The number of bodies used has been from forty to
fifty ; but more would have been dissected had there not existed great difficulty and risk in
obtaining them.
Lastly, with regard " to the remedies" I would propose, I presume to observe that there
are three which seem to me quite unobjectionable; namely, 1st, the disposal for the pur-
poses of disseclion of all unclaimed bodies; 2dly, allowing importation ; and 3dly, giving
over the bodies of persons executed in the county towns. The first of these souices of
supply has been alluded to and sanctioned by every friend to human dissection ; but on the
second and third sources proposed, a few words may be necessary. I am of opinion, that
if importation from Ireland were allowed, our schools would be abundantly supplied; and
J presume that it would not be difficult to suggest the means of removing the objection
that may be made to this measure, namely, that it may afford a vehicle for the transmission
t f contraband articles, and thereby open a path to fraud and evasion of duties. All parts of
the North might be furnished with subjects for dissection from this source of supply, and
the schools in London and other parts might derive the means from the Continent. The
bodies of persons executed at Lancaster (our county town), and on which sentence of dis-
seclion has been passed, are now, I believe, only nominally dissected ; if such bodies were
consigned over to the schools of anatomy, the ends of justice would be more fully accom-
plished, and the dead rendered subservient to the use of the living; but this source can
only be considered as an auxiliary one.
I have the honour to be, Sir,
Your obedient humble servant,
Manchester, 30, King-street. Tko. Turner.
Appendix, N" 9.
,. XT0 LETTER from Messrs. Barnes & James, Surgeons to the Devon and Exeter Hospital,
Appemhx^N 9. to IIem.y Warburton, Esq. dated Exeter, April 19th, 1828.
Sir, April 19th, 1828.
WE beg to state to you, for the information of the Committee, that in the year 1819 we
commenced giving an annual course of anatomical demonstrations at the Devon and Exeter
Hospital, with the view of affording pupils, in the early part of their education, the means
of acquiring some knowledge of that science on which so much depends ; and the governors
of the hospital, in order to promote so desirable an object, have built a commodious lecture
room.
The city possesses an hospital containing two hundred patients, a dispensary, an eye
infirmary, and has contiguous to it a large workhouse, the county gaol and bridewell,
together with a large poor population. It is in many respects well calculated to become
a place of instruction, in the elements, at least, of medical science; to advance a useful
knowledge, of which nothing can be of so much importance as an early and accurate
acquaintance with anatomy.
The very many advantages offered to medical students of acquiring a practical know-
ledge of their profession in these various places of instruction, make us regret the more that
the obstacles are so great which interfere with the teaching of anatomy.
The anatomical course is intended to be, as an elementary one, complete, and whenever
we have been able to procure subjects, has been continued through four or five of the winter
months. The average number of attendant pupils has been sixteen ; but, from the nuuiber
of medical pupils in this place, we have every reason to believe that the number would be
considerably increased had we more ample means of giving instruction.
To avoid the unpopularity and odium which would attach to the hospital, should it be
understood that we favoured the disinterment of bodies buried here, or in this neighbour-
hood, we have invariably purchased them in London.
During
SELECT COMMITTEE ON ANATOMY.
'33
During the two or three first winters, though we had to pay rattier a high price for good Appendix, N°<
subjects, yet we had not much, difficulty in procuring them. For the last two or three (continued.)'
seasons, the cost has to us been twelve guineas; and the great difficulty of obtaining them, .
at that price, and as a favour, has interfered most seriously with our plans, and made the
course very incomplete. The instruction has been on our part gratuitous; the pupils sub-
scribing a sum sufficient to pay the expenses. In some winters, we have not been able to
obtain more than one subject. For the purposes of the course, we require three or four;
and the pupils, for their private dissection, would well employ as many more.
We think, that if the law would grant the unclaimed bodies of persons dying at the
hospital, the workhouse, and the gaols, an ample supply could be obtained. The subjects
would be also but recently deceased ; and from the probable sufficiency of the supply, the
bodies might be interred at the expiration of a given time, without any such dismember-
ment as would render burial, according to the rites of the church, objectionable. If required,
we would undertake to defray all expenses of interment.
Should this source disappoint us, it would yet very much assist us, if the facilities of
obtaining bodies from London were such as to ensure the purchase of a subject at any
required time, and at a moderate price.
We have the honour to remain,
Your obedient servants,
Sam. Barnes, John Haddy James,
Exeter, April 19th, 1828. Surgeons to the Devon and Exeter Hospital.
Appendix, N° 10.
LETTER from Dr. Traill, of Liverpool, addressedto Henry VVarburton, Esq. M.P. Chairman Appendix, Nu 10.
of the Committee of Inquiry into the state of Anatomical Studies in these Kingdoms ;
dated May 1, 1S2S.
Sir, Liverpool, May t, 1828.
IN compliance with the Dr. Somerville's request, I beg leave to transmit to you the
following remarks on the study of Anatomy ill Liverpool:
We have in this place two public teachers of Anatomy, Dr. Formby and Mr. Gill, who
annually deliver lectures on that subject, and have dissecting rooms connected with their
establishments.
The average number of pupils under both is about forty, including students of medicine,
sculptors and painters, and a few who attend without professional views; but the greatest
number are young men intended for the medical profession.
The number of bodies annually required for these lectures and dissecting rooms is, Tarn
informed, from twenty-four to twenty-eight, to which should be added what are privately
dissected by different medical men among us, anxious for the improvement of their art;
but of these it is impossible to obtain any tolerable estimate.
The price of anatomical subjects here has varied from three to seven guineas each, or
even more. Bodies can be easily procured in Dublin, and brought to Liverpool at a cost of
from three to five guineas; but the frequent seizures of bodies so imported, by our Custom-
house officers, have rendered the supply precarious and the price fluctuating.
A great number of young men receive in Liverpool the elements of their medical educa-
tion, either in our extensive medical charities, or in the establishments of our highly respect-
able surgeons ; but comparatively few of them are here able to acquire a due knowledge of
practical Anatomy, from the expense and risk of pursuing, under the present system, such
investigations.
On this account some of them go to Dublin, and a few to Paris, to acquire this essential
basis of surgical skill, which can now be much more cheaply obtained even in a foreign
land than in London.
The difficulty of procuring anatomical subjects has of late greatly increased in Liverpool.
This is owing to the excitation of the public mind, occasioned by tiie detection of a disgust-
ing wholesale trade in dead bodies from this place, for the supply of London, Edinburgh and
Glasgow ; to the severity of the sentences passed at our quarter sessions on those in whose
possession a recognized body has been found, and to the interference of our Custom-house
officers in preventing the importation of anatomical subjects from Ireland.
It requires a long~series of years to establish a respectable medical school ; and the injury
which the present obstructions to the acquirement of anatomical know ledge are daily inflicting
on the schools of Britain are of the most serious character. It is frightful to consider, should
the present system be continued, how often, in after times, the young surgeon will have to
try his knife on the living body without having acquired, on the dead subject, that manual
dexterity and knowledge of contiguous parts so necessary to the safety of his patient. It
must be acknowledged that there "are difliculties in the way of legislating on this subject,
when so many popular prejudices, and so many amiable feelings too, are in danger of being
excited. Perhaps the evils complained of might be lessened by enactments to the following
effect :
1. — To legalize the sale of dead bodies by the friends of the deceased, leaving to
them the option, in all cases, of committing the body at once to the earth, or of first
submitting it to the examination and research of the anatomist.
568. R 3 =— To
134
APPENDIX TO REPORT FROM
Appendix, N° 10, 2. — To legalize the importation of anatomical subjects so as to prevent the inter-
(ctmtinutd.) ference of the Custom-house oflicers in diverting them from their destination.
Were this done, bodies could be procured, on 'moderate terms, in most parts of England,
from Ireland, or even from France.
3. — To repeal the clause which orders dissection as a part of the punishment of the
most atrocious crime.
I have heard it urged as an argument against suffering even the anatomical inspection of
a body, that " the deceased was no murderer." Those who doubt the effect of such notions
on the minds of the multitude, appear to me to have little practical acquaintance with their
modes of thinking on such subjects; and it may be well doubted if ever the arm of the
murderer was arrested by the consideration that, in case of detection, his dead limbs would
be dissevered by the Anatomist, instead of being more slowly consumed by worms.
I have the honour to be, Sir, your most obedient humble servant,
Thos. Stewart Traill.
Appendix, N* 1 1.
Appendix, N° 11. REGULATIONS of the Court of Examiners of the Society of Apothecaries,
'_ London; applicable to Persons who commenced attendance on Lectures since
1st of February 1828.
THE Court of Examiners chosen, and appointed by the Master, Warden, and Assistants
of the Society of Apothecaries of the City of London, in pursuance of a certain Act of
Parliament, " for better regulating the Practice of Apothecaries throughout England and
Wales, passed in the 55th year of the reign of his Majesty King George the Third, have
determined :
That every candidate for a certificate to practise as an apothecary, shall be required to
possess a competent knowledge of the Latin language, and to produce testimonials of having
served an apprenticeship of not less than five years to an apothecary ; of having attained
the full age of twenty-one years, and being of a good moral conduct.
N. B. — Articles of apprenticeship, where such are in existence, will be required; but in
case such articles shall have been lost, it is expected that the candidate shall bring forward
very strong testimony to prove that he has served such an apprenticeship as the Act of
Parliament directs.
He is also required to produce certificates of having attended not less than —
One Course of Lectures on Materia Medica and Medical Botany:
One Course of Lectures on Chemistry :
Two Courses of Lectures on Anatomy and Physiology :
Two Courses of Lectures on the Theory and Practice of Medicine — these last to
be attended subsequently to the lectures on Materia Medica, Chemistry, and to one course
at least of Anatomy.
N. B. — No testimonial of attendance on lectures on the principles and practice of medi-
cine, delivered in London, or within seven miles thereof, will render a candidate eligible for
examination, unless such lectures were given, and the testimonial is signed by a fellow,
candidate, or licentiate of the Royal College of Physicians.
A certificate of attendance for six months at least on the medical practice of some public
hospital or infirmary, or for nine months at a dispensary, — such attendance to commence
subsequently to the termination of the first course of lectures on the principles and practice
of medicine.
N. B. — Physicians' pupils, who intend to present themselves for examination, must ap-
pear personally at the beadle's office in this hall, and bring with them the tickets autho-
rizing their attendance on such practice, as the commencement thereof will be dated from
the time of such personal appearance.
The regulations relating to the order of succession in which the lectures on the practice
of medicine, and the medical practice of an hospital or dispensary, are to be attended, are
designed to apply to those students only who shall commence their attendance on lectures
on or after the 1st of February 1828; and all such persons are particularly requested to
lake notice, that unless they shall have strictly complied with such order of succession, they
will not be admitted to an examination.
In addition to the course of study above required, and which is indispensably necessary,
the candidates are earnestly recommended to attend one or more courses of lectures on mid-
wifery, and the diseases of women and children; on the latter of which subjects, as an iiu*
portant part of medical practice, they will be examined.
The court have determined, that the examination of the candidate shall be as follows: —
1. In translating gramatieally parts of the Pharmacopoeia Londinensis, and Physicians'
Prescriptions.
Should any doubt arise as to the candidate's possessing a competent knowledge of Latin,
he will be required to translate a passage or passages from some one of the easier, Latin
authors.
N. B — ^The court are anxious to impress upon candidates a conviction of the necessity
ot a knowlege of the Latin language, because thev have had the painful duty imposed ou
them.
SELECT COMMITTEE ON ANATOMY.
'35
tliem, of rejecting several persons, entirely from their deficiency in this important pre-
requisite of a medical education.
2. In Chemistry.
3. In the Materia Medica and Medical Botany.
4. In Anatomy and Physiology.
5. In the Practice of Medicine.
Notice. — Every person intending to qualify himself under the regulations of this Act, to
practise as an apothecary, must give notice in writing, addressed to the clerk of the society,
on or before the Monday previously to the clay of examination ; and must also at the same
time deposit all the required testimonials at the office of the beadle, at Apothecaries' Hall,
where attendance is given every day (except Sunday) from 9 until 2 o'clock.
The court will meet in the hall every Thursday, where candidates are requested to attend
at half-past 1 o'clock.
By order of the Court,
London, Sept. 14, 1827. John Watson, Secretary.
Appendix, N° 1
(continued.)
Appendix, N° 12.
REGULATIONS of the Council of the Royal College of Surgeons in London, Appendix, N° 12.
relating to the Age and professional Education of Candidates for the Diploma
of the College.
I. — THE only schools of Anatomy and Physiology recognized, are London, Dublin,
Edinburgh, Glasgow, and Aberdeen.
II. — Attendance upon the surgical practice of an hospital will be recognized, provided
such hospital contain, at least, one hundred patients.
III. — No person under twenty-two years of age shall be admitted a member of the
College.
IV. — The following certificates will be required of candidates for the diploma of the
College :
1. Of having been engaged six years, at least, in the acquisition of professional
knowledge.
2. Of having regularly attended three or more winter-courses of anatomy and
physiology, and two or more winter-courses of dissections and demon-
strations, delivered at subsequent periods.
[Two courses of anatomy and physiology in Edinburgh or Dublin, which
are of six months duration, and the accompanying courses of dis-
sections and demonstrations, will be considered as equivalent to the
foregoing attendance.]
3. Of having regularly attended two or more courses of lectures on the prin-
ciples and practice of surgery ; one of which shall have been delivered in
a recognized school of anatomy.
4. Of having also attended the following lectures, viz.
Two courses on the theory and practice of physic of three months each, or
one of six months.
One course on materia medica and botany.
Two courses on chemistry of three months each, or one of six months.
Two courses on midwifery of three months each, or one of six months.
5. And of having attended during the term of, at least, one year, the surgical
practice of one or more of the following hospitals; viz. St. Bartholomew's,
St. Thomas's, the Westminster, Guy's, St. George's, the London, and the
Middlesex, in London; the Richmond, Steeven's, and the Meath, in Dub-
lin; and the Royal Infirmaries in Edinburgh, Glasgow, and Aberdeen ; or
during four years the surgical practice of a recognized provincial hospital,
and six months, at least, the practice of one of the above-named hospitals,
in the schools of anatomy.
V. — Candidates under the following circumstances, of the required age, and who have
been engaged five years in the acquisition of professional knowledge, will be
admissible to examination; viz.
Members, or licentiates in surgery, of any of the legally constituted Colleges of
Surgeons in the United Kingdom:
And graduates in medicine of any of the Universities in the United Kingdom,
provided they have attended lectures, the practice of an hospital, and per-
formed dissections, as required in Regulation IV.
VI.— The required certificates shall express the dates of the commencement and of the
termination of attendance on each course of lectures and dissections ; and also of
attendance on hospital practice.
VII.— The required certificates shall be delivered at the College ten days before candidates
can be admitted to examination.
(By order,) Edmund Bel/our, Secretary.
*,ih day of January
56S.
R4
,36 APPENDIX TO REPORT LIIOM
Appendix, N° 1 j.
Appendix, N* 13. Administration Gene-rale des Hopitaux, Hospices et Sbcoles a Domicile, de Pans.
L'Administkation, considerant qu'il est necessaire que les eleves qui frcquentent
l'Amphitheatre connaisscnt les dispositions reglementaires qui les concernent ;
Considerant qu'il lui importe de faire connaitre aussi qu'en exigeant une retribution
pt'euniaire pour la delivranoe des sujets d'etude de 1'anatomie, elle a voulu en assurer la
conservation dans l'interet de la science, faire cesser Tabus tic mutiler sans precaution,
necessite, ni profit pour 1'etude, les corps delivres gratuitcment aux eleves, et interesser
ceux-ci a retirer des sujets qu'ils obtiennent tous It?s avantages qu'ils presentent a
1'instruction :
L'administration, par ces motifs, a juge necessaire de faire imprinter un extrait du regie-
meat interieur de l'Amphitheatre.
Extrait du Reglement Interieur de l'Ampliitlieatie d'Anatomie des Hopitaux et
Hospices Civils de Paris.
Article 1". L'Amphitheatre est specialement consacre a l'instructioti des eleves des
Hopitaux et Hospices, ainsi que des aspirans et, par preference, de ceux de I'Hotel-Dieu,
de la Pitie et de l'liospice de la Vieillesse (Femines).
Art. 2. Les etrangers a la France ne seront admis dans 1'Amplii theatre, pour y etudier
1'anatomie, qu'autant qu'ils en auront regu l'autorisstion du membre du conseil general 011
de celui de la commission administrative qui sont charges de cet etablissement.
Art. 3. Le chef des travaux anatomiques dirigera 1" Amphitheatre ; il en aura la police et
la surveillance ; e'est lui qui fera le classement des sujets.
Art. 4. Le classement aura lieu sous les numeros 1, 2 et 3, scion le degre d'avantages que
les sujets presentcront ti 1'etude de 1'anatomie.
Art. 5. La retribution a* payer par chaque sujet est fixee d'apres cet ordrc de classe-
ment; savoir,
Pour un sujet, n° 1, a huit francs;
Pour id., - n° 2, a cinq fnuics ;
Pour id., - n" 3, a trois francs.
Art. 6. L'injeclion des sujets sera payee, a raison de quatre francs. Les sujets n° 1"
etant les seuls qui soient propres a cette preparation, la retribution en sera de douze francs,
lorsqu'ils seront injectes.
Art. 7. Les eleves seront distingues en trois classes: la premiere comprendra les eleves
internes places dans les Hopitaux et Hospices; la seconde, les eleves externes ; la troisieme,
Its aspirans a i'externat.
Art. 8. Les eleves internes paieront les sujets n° 1, cinq francs, les sujets n° 2, trots
francs, et ceux qui seront injectes, six francs.
Les eleves externes et les aspirans paieront la retribution fixee par l'article 5.
Art. 9. Une table de dissection sera complete lorsque quatre eleves y seront reunis.
Art. 10. Lorsque quatre internes dissequeront ensemble a la meme table, les sujets leur
seront delivres gratuitement, excepte ceux qui seront injectes, et pour lesquels les frais
d'injection seront payes quatre francs.
Art. ri. Lorsque quatre externes seront reunis et dissequeront a la meme table, ils
jouiront des avantages assures a un interne par le premier paragraphe de l'article 8.
Art. 12. II sera tenu un registre pour l'iascriplion des demandes de sujets; les eleves
internes, les externes et les aspirans y auront un compte ouvert, et une serie de numeros
par chaque classe.
Ce registre sera tenu par celui des prosecteurs que le chef des travaux aura designe.
Art. 13. Les eleves internes seront servis les premiers; les externes le seront ensuite, et
en dernier lieu les aspirans, s'il y a possibilite.
Art. 14. La distribution des sujets sera toujours faite a une heure fixe; on suivra inva-
riahlement 1'ordre d'inscription des eleves; l'appel en sera fait au moment de la distribution.
Si un eleve appele ne se presentait pas, ie sujet qui lui etait destine sera delivre a Televe
qui le suivra immediatemtnt dans 1'ordre description sur le registre des demandes.
Art. 15. Si un sujet restait plus de vingt-quatre lieuies sur la table sans etre etudie, il
serra donne a d'autres eleves et compris dans la plus prochaine distribution.
Art. 16. Les sujets qui seront delivres pour l'exercicc des operations chirurgicales seront
rem is :
1°. Aux eleves internes, pour le prix de trois francs;
20. Aux eleves externes, pour quatre francs;
30. Aux aspirans, moyennant cinq francs.
Art. 17. Lorsque quatre eleves internes, reunis a la meme table, s'exerceront ensemble au
niauuel des operations chirurgicales, les sujets leur seront delivres gratuitement.
Art. 18. Quatre externes sVxercant ensemble a la meme table jouiront des memes avan-
tages qu'un interne, d'apres les dispositions de l'article 16.
Art. iq. Si un eleve restait plus d'un jour sans se rendre a 1'etude, sa place sera donnee
a un autre etudiant, et il ne pourra la reprendre qu'au renouvellement de la table sur
laquelle il tiavaillait.
Art. 20. Lorsqu'il sera constant qu'un eleve interne on exierne ti'aura, pour son entretien,
que le strict necessaire, ct que sa famille sera hois d'etat d'v pour\oir plus abondam-
mcr.i.
SELECT COMMITTEE ON ANATOMY.
'.-7
ment, il ponrra etre dispense de toute ou de partie de la retribution exigee pour lade- Appendix, N° 13,
livrance des sujets. (continued.)
Dans ce cas, il en fera la demands a l'Administration, en l'appuyant de preuves ecrites, et ■
il sera statue apres avoir veiifie les renseignemens procluits par l'eleve.
Art. 21. Deux laboratoires seront specialeinent consacres clans 1'Amphitheatre au service
des cliniques de l'Hotel-Dieu, pour y continuer les recherches d'anatomie pathologique qui
ne pourraient etre achevees clans cet Hopital.
Ces laboratoires seront sous la surveillance immediate du chef des travaux anatomiques,
et seront soumis a toutes les regies d'ordre, de proprete et de salubrite- qui regissent
1 Amphitheatre.
Art. 22. Tous les sujets ouverts, provenant de l'Hotel-Dieu, de la Pitie et de la Vieil-
lesse (Feinmes), seront remis sans frais a eeux des eleves de ces etablissemens qui seront
charges par leurs chef's respectit's de faire ou de continuer des recherches d'anatomie pa-
thologique, et qui justifieront de cette mission par la presentation de l'ordre ecrit qu'ils en
auront recti.
Art. 23. Lorsqu'une piece d'anatomie pathologique aura ete preparee dans ces labora-
toires, elle potirra etre reportec dans les etablissemens preciles, pour servir aux le§ons, si
ks professeurs la demandent.
Art. 24. Des cabinets parliculiers seront affectes aux travaux des eleves internes : ces
cabinets seront soumis a toutes les regies d'ordre, de proprete et de salubrite qui regissent
I'Amphitheatre.
, Art. 25. 11 y aura des laboratoires consacres aux recherches speciales, auxquelles les chefs
du service de sante des Hopitaux et Hospices voudraient se livrer: ces laboratoires seront
sous 1'inspcction direete du chef des travaux anatomiques.
Art. 26. Les prosecteurs seront au nombre de deux : l'un aura le litre de premier, l'autre
de second. Si le premier prosecteur venait a cesser ses fonctions pour quelque cause que
ce soit, il sera remplace par le second, et celui-ci parun nouveau prosecteur, nomine par
PAdrninistration, sur la presentation du chef des travaux anatomiques.
Art. 27. Les prosecteurs pourront representer le chef des travaux en son absence; ils
1 dirigeront les eleves clans les circonstances difficiles, et seront charges de tout ce qui est
relatif a l'injection des sujets, ainsi que de la preparation et de la repetition des lecons.
Art. 28. Les prosecteurs prepareront les pieces d'anatomie et d'anatomie pathologique
qui doivent etre conservees clans le Musee d'anatomie.
Art. 20. L'un des prosecteurs sera charge de la surveillance et de la conservation du
materiel de 1'Amphitheatre; l'autre de cellcs du Musee, des pieces qu'il renferme et de la
Bibliotheque.
Le chef reglera ces attributions, et designer? ceux des prosecteurs qui devront les
remplir.
Art. 30. Independamment du service general, les prosecteurs seront tenus d'etre alter-
nativement de garde, pour surveiller l'arrivee et le depart des voitures qui transportent les
corps et leurs debris; veiller a ce que les tables et les salles soient regulierement et com-
pletement lavees, et pour s'assurcr que toutes les mesures d'ordre, de proprete el tie salubrite
ont ete executees.
Art. 31. Les salles de dissection seront ouvertes aux eleves depuis dix heures du matin
jusqu'u quatre hemes du soir.
Art. 32. Immediatement apres la fermeture des salles, les debris de sujets seront remis
dans leurs linceuls, et les salles ainsi que les tables seront lavees avec le plus grand soin.
Art. 33. Tous les soirs, a la chute du jour, les sujets sur lesquels on aura cesse d'etudier
seront portes au cimetiere.
Art. 34. 11 est defendu de rien degrader dans les salles, dans les laboratoires, les cabinets,
ni auctme autre partie de 1'Amphitheatre, sous peine de payer le dommage et d'en etre
exclus.
Art. 35. Les eleves seront solidairement responsables de ces degradations, sauf leur
recours contre ceux qui les auraient commises.
Ait. 36. Aucun eleve ne potirra troubler l'orclre et la tranquillite necessaires a l'etude,
sous peine d'exelusion.
Art. 37. La fixite dans les idees, le recueillement et le meditation etant des conditions
de succes clans l'etude des sciences, toutes conversations ou discours sur des matieres
etrnngeies a. l'anatomie sont formellement interdits dans les diverses parties de l'Amphi-
theatre : ceux qui s'y liveraient et qui ne defereraient pas aux representations du chef des
travaux, ou des prosecteurs, pourront etre, a l'instant meme, exclus de letablissemeut pour
11'y plus rentier.
Art. 38. 11 est defendu de jeter et de disperser aucun debris de sujets ; ils doivent etre
deposes dans les baquets ou laisses sur les tables pour etre enleves apres la cloture des
salles.
Art. 39. 11 est defendu aux eleves de faire des macerations ou toutes autres preparations
anatomiques, suus quelque pretexte que ce soit, sans l'autorisation du chef des travaux.
Art. 40. II est interdit aux eleves de fairc sortir des salles des pieces preparees ou non,
ni aucun debris, pour etre emportes hois de rAmphitheatre.
Art. 41. Lorsqu'uu eleve voudra etuclier une piece anatomique faisant partie du Musee,
consulter des estampes, des dessins ou des livres de la Bibliotheque, il en fera la dciuande
au chef des travaux, qui, s'il le juge convenable, permettra au prosecteur de comuiuniqner
l'objet demande, mais sans desemparer, et sous la condition expresse de ne le point laire
sortir de la galerie ou de la Bibliotheque.
568. S Art. 42. II
138
APPENDIX TO REPORT FROM
Appendix, N° 13,
{continued.)
Art. 42. II est rocommandc aiix eleves de ne point donner aux garcons de salles des
gratifications, sous quelque forme ou denomination que ce soit.
Art. 43. Les gargons d'Amphitheatre ou de salles seront choisis par le chef des travaux,
et revocables par lui; ils seront sous ses ordres immediats, et dans son absence et pour les
details du service, ils seront tenu3 d'obeir aux prosecteurs.
Art. 44. Les gallons d'Amphitheatre seront charges de rauiasser les debris, comme il est
present a l'article 32, et de les disposer pour etre transportcs au cirnetiere; de nettoyeret
laver les salles, les tables et les baquets, et de les tenir dans l'etat de la plus grande proprete ;
et enfin de faire tout ce que le chef jugera a. propos de leur commander pour le bien da
service.
Art. 45. Les gargons ne pourront, sous peine de renvoi, exiger ni recevoir des eleves
aucune retribution ou gratification, sous quelque forme que ce soit ; ils pourront d'ailleurs
etre soumis a toutes les regies d'ordre et de police que le chef des travaux jugera necessaires.
Paris, le 30 Octobre 1812.
Pour extrait conforme,
Le membre de la Commission administrative charge des Hospices,
B. Desportes.
Approuve le present extrait, le membre du Conseil general.
Sisnie le due de Doudeauville.
Appendix, N° 14.
Appendix, N° 14.
ABSTRACT OF RETURNS FROM ANATOMICAL SCHOOLS.
1826.
St. Bartholomew's Hospital -
Guy's Hospital -
St. Thomas's Hospital -
London Hospital
Great Windmill Street
Webb-street School, Borough
Little Dean-street, Soho
Chapel-street, Grovesnor-square
Dean-street, Soho
Howland-street, Fitzroy-square
Aldersgate- street
Little Windmill-street
1827.
Z 1
z
*1
ll
0 jp
z 1
3
ja 1
E. a
hi
s 1
z
if
1
>
1 I
°*%
Z 3
8
Mr. Abemethy
170
150
-
85
176
160
-
85
- Mr. B. Cooper
84
86
151
80
81
88
142
86
Mr. Green
16J
-
121
70
133
-
145
70
• Mr. Headington
60
45
40
42
-
-
-
-
Mr. Mayo
79-
7i
95
90
82
60
94
70
Mr. Grainger
125
125
-
112
142
142
-
95
Mr. Bennett
38
30
30
30
Mr. Sleigh
50
5°
45
15
Mr. Carpue
30
30
20
-
Mr. Tuson
17
17
14
8
Mr. Tyrrell
42
46
46
28
46
54
54
39
Mr. Dermott
45
5^
30-35
30-35
50
43
30-35
30-35
Appendix, N° 15. Appendix, N' 1 5.
NUMBER of the Fellows and Licentiates of the College of Physicians, London,
admitted in the Year 1827.
Fellows
Licentiates
/F" Macmichael, Registrar.
SELECT COMMITTEE ON ANATOMY.
Appendix, N* 16.
Guy's Hospital ; — NUMBER of Patients admitted during the Year 1S27.
In-patients entered at Guy's Hospital during the year 1827 - - 2,767
Out-patients entered during the same period - 13*065
Casualties entered and relieved at the surgery during the same period - 20,890
Appendix, IS0 16.
Patients died in the hospital during the same period
Of which, claimed and taken from the hospital
Buried in the hospital burying ground, at the expense of their
friends ---------
Unclaimed, or claimed and not taken away, or which have
been buried at the hospital expense - - - -
36,722
299
Benjamin Harrison, Treasurer Guy's Hospital.
Appendix, N° 17.
A RETURN of the Number of Patients who have died in St. Thomas's Hospital, in Southwark, during the last Ten
Years ; distinguishing the Number of those who were removed from the Hospital by their Friends and Securities, and
the Number of those Buried in the Hospital Burial Ground ; also separating the latter into the several Divisions of
those buried at the cost of their Friends and Securities, — their several Parishes, — the Corporation of the City of London,
— the Victualling Office, and the unclaimed Bodies buried at the cost of the Hospital.
YEAR.
TOTAL
Number died.
Number
of those taken
avtay by
their Friends
and Securities.
Number
bnried in the
Hospital
Burial Ground
Number
of these buried
at cost of
Friends and
Securities.
Number of Number
Parish Patients buried at the
buried 1 cost of the
at the cost of J City
their Parish. 1 of London.
I Number
j buried at the
cost of the
Victualling
Office.
Number
of unclaimed
buried at cost
of the
Hospital,
Total number
of the
three last
Divisions.
1818
234
176
58
31
4
11
2
IO
23
1819
209
'53
56
26
8
11
7
4
22
i8ao
S25
»73
52
26
7
10
3
6
19
1821
201
l62
39
22
8
8
0
1
9
1822
193
151
43
21
4
11
3
3
17
1823
248
205
43
20
8
10
2
3
15
1824
175
135
40
18
5
10
1
6
17
1825
337
175
62
29
6
10
5
12
27
1826
240
173
67
29
7
12
5
U
31
1827
259
194-
65
32
7
lS
2
6
26
2,221
1,697
524
254
III
30
65
206
Memorand.— The friends of City Patients frequently attend their Funerals, so that it is not probable more than about
twelve bodies could be annually given up for dissection from out of the three last Divisions.
S2
APPENDIX TO REPORT FROM
Appendix, N" l 8.
Append!:
N° 18.
RETURNS
OF the Number of Persons who, in the Year 1827, died in the Workhouses of the several under-mentioned Parishes in
the City of London, Wilhin the Walls, Without the Walls, in the Out Parishes of Middlesex and Surrey, and in the
10 Parishes of the 0% and Uberties.of Westminster. II. OF the Number of Persons who, in the same Year
having died in the Workhouses of the said Parishes, were buried at the Parish Expense III. OF the Number of
Persons who, in the same Year, having died in the Workhouses of the said Parishes, were buried at the expanse of
their Friends. IV. OF the Number of Persons who, in the same Year, having died elsewhere than in the Work-
houses of the said Parishes, were buried at the Parish expense. V. OF the Number of Persons who, in the same
Year, died in the Workhouses of the said Parishes, and were buried at the Parish expense, and whose funerals are not
known to have been attended by any Relation.
1.
It.
III.
IV.
V.
PARISHES.
Died in
the Workhuuse.
Died in the
Workliouse, and
buried at the
ParUb expense.
Did in the
Workhouse, and
buried at the
expense of their
Friends.
Died elsewhere
lh;:n in theWork-
house.and buried
at the Parisb ex-
Died in the Wo*-
houscand buried
at the Parish ex-
pense, but whoso
funeral was not
known lu hare
been attended by
any Relation.
ALL-HALLOWS Barking, in Tower-street -
7
7
. . .
6
1
All-hallows the Great, in Thames-street -
2
1
1
4
_
All hallows, in Honey-lane ....
1
t
- . .
1
All-hallows the Less, at Coal Harbour
_
~
_
All-hallows, in Lombard-street ...
3
3
j
All-hallows Staining, in Mark-lane
3
3
-
3
9
All-hallows, on London-wall -
7
7
-
,
St. Andrew Hubbard, in Little Fasteheap
1
1
-
3
St. Andrew Uudershafl, Leadenhall-street
5
-
-
3
l
St. Andrew, by the Wardrobe ...
2
■2
-
4
1
St. Anne, within Aldersgate -
3
3
-
2
St. Anne, in Blackfriars -
'9
16
3
3
St. Austin, at the Old Change
1
,
j
St. Bartholomew, by the Exchange
1
0
.
3
_-
St. Benntt Fink, in Threadneedie-streei -
4
3
,
_
St. Bennet, in Graccchurch-street -
.
.
.
St. Bennet, at Paul's Wharf -
St. Bennet Sheiehog, in Sithe's-lanc
4
3
1
.
St. Botolph, at Billingsgate ....
1
- - .
,
,
Christchurch, near Newgate-street -
(3
G
•
.,
.-,
St. Dionis Backchurch, in Lime-street
1
1
-
a
St. Dunstan in the East, 'Power-street
5
5
6
3
St. Edmund the King, Lombard street
.
.
St. Faith, under St. Paul's Cathedral
4
4
I
4
St. Gabriel, in Fcnchurch -street -
2
;
St. George, in Botolph-lane -
I
1
St. Gregory, by St. Paul's ....
3
3
6
a
St. Helen, by Btshogsgate-street - - -
•2
.2
.
■2
'2
St. .lames, in Duke's place -
•2
•2
- - -
.,
St. John the Baptist, near Dowgate
.
.
-
.
St. Jotn Zacbary, in Foster-lane
j
1
1
St. KatheiineCrcschuich, Leadenhall-street -
<i
6
4.
■ ;
St. Laurence Jewry, near Guildhall
-
...
. ." :
1
St. Laurence Po»utney, in Cannon-street •
1
- - "
—
( larried forward - -
s9
82
7
?»
So
SELECT COMMITTEE ON ANATOMY.
Appendi
r A R I S II E :
Brought forward -
Si. Margaret, in Lotlibury ...
St. Margaret Moses, in Friday-street
St. Margaret, in New Fish-street
St. Margaret I'attens, in Rood-lane
St. Martin, in Ironmonger lane
St. Martin, at Ludgate -
St. Martin Oulwich, Threadneedle-street -
St. Martin Vintry, near College Ilill
St. Mary Abchurch, in Abchurch-lnne
St. Mary-lc-bow. in Cheapside
St. Mary Colecburch, in Cheapside
St. Mary Hill, near Billingsgate
St. Mary Magdalen, in Milk-street
St. Mary Magdalen, in Old Fish-street -
St. Mary Somerset, at Broken Wharf
St. Mary Staining, near Noble-street
St. Mary Woolnoth, Lombard-street
St. Matthew, in Friday-street
St. Michael, in Cornbill
St. Michael, at Queenhithe -
St. Michael-lc-Quern, Cheapside
St. Michael Royal, on College-hill
St. Miebael, in Great Wood-street -
St- Nicholas Aeons, in Lombard-street
St. Nicholas Coleabby, Old Fish-street -
St. Nicholas Clave, Bread-street-hill
St. Olave, Hart-street, Crutched Friars -
St. Olave, in the Old Jewry -
St. Olave, in Silver-street
St. Peter, in Cheapside - - - -
St. Peter, in Cornbill, -
St. Peter, near Paul's Wharf
St. Peter-le-1'oor in Broad-street
St. Stephen, in Coleman-street
St. Swithin, at London-stone -
St. Tliomas-the- Apostle, Queen-street
Trinity Parish, Trinity-lane -
St. Vedast, in Foster-lane, Cheapside
St. Andrew, in Holborn, and "1
St. George the Martyr J
St. Bartholomew the Great, West Smithlield
St. Bartholomew the Less, by the Hospital
St. Botolph without, Aldersgate
Cs> ried forward -
Died ehewliere
thanintheWork-
house, and buried
at the Parish cx-
63
4
13
199
3'3
Died in the Work-
house oik! buried
at the Parish ex-
pense, but whose
funeral w:is not
known to have
been attended by
any Relation.
S3
(continued.)
APPENDIX TO REPORT FROM
Appendix, N° 18 — continued.
I.
II.
III.
IV.
V.
Pied ili
Died in the
Died in the
Died elsewhere
Died in theWork-
the Workhouse.
Workhouse.and
Workhouse, and
than in the Work-
bouse and buried
buried at the
buried at the
house, und huiied
arthe Faruh ex-
l'.VU IS HB&
Parish expense.
expense of their
at the I'arish ex-
pense, but whose
frendf.
funeral was not
known to have
been attended by
any Relation.
Brought forward -
235
199
36
17a
10G
St. Botolph without, Aldgate
2,3
21
•2
16
10
St. Botolph without, Bishopsgatc ...
45
37
8
37
6
St. Dunstan in the West, Fleet-street
13
12
1
4
St. George the Martyr, in Southwark
74
68
6
124
*
St. Giles without, Cripptegate -
48
38
10
35
7
St. John, in South waik -,.-.-■*
24
17
7
17
20
St. Olave, in Southvark -
34
3»
3
74
St. Saviour, in Southward ....
67
54
13
74
16
St. Sepulchre without, Newgate -
52
47
5
14
*
St. Thomas, in Southwark -
2
1
1
1
1
Trinity Parish, in the Minories -
3
g
-
2
St. Anne, in Middlesex -----
'5
14
1
20
13
Christchurch, near Southwark -
19
2
22
Christehurch, Spital Fields, in Middlesex '
70
58
12
74
40
j-Ratcliff -
St. Dunstan, at Stepney J Mile-end Old Town -
iMile-end New Town -
25
20
5
40
5
32
30
2
4
21
13
8
St. George, in Middlesex -
114
102
12
68
90
St. George, Bloomsbury, and *,
285
68
St. Giles in the Fields," llolhorn J
353
190
35
St. James, at Clerkenwell - - - -
104
97
7
44
30
St. John, at Hackney
40
32
8
66
17
St. Katharine, near the Tower ...
18
10
8
-
10
St. Leonard, in Shorediich -
139
102
37
13
35
St. Luke, Middlesex, in Old-street - - -
105
70
35
7
26
St. Mary, at Islington - - - - -
44
34
10
9
*
St. Mary, at Lambeth
155
129
26
—
*
St. Mary Magdalen, Bermondsey
81
65
16
69
23
St. Mary, at Whitechapel ... -
200
1S3
17
79
*
St. Matthew, at Belhnal Green -
144
122
22
1
*
St. Paul, at Shadwell
38
34
4
57
*
St. Anne, Westminster, near Soho -
26
18
8
—
*
St. Clement Danes, within Temple Bar -
53
38
15
25
#
St. George, by Hanover-square -
177
141
36
85
18
St. James, in Jermyn street, Westminster
171
138
33
44
£0
St. John the Evangelist, Westminster, and 1
St. Margaret, in Westminster - - -J
168
148
20
339
84
St. Martin in the Fields - . 7
1 25
99
26
72
64
St. Mary le Strand ..-_--
8
7
1
3
7
The Precinct of the Savoy - - - -
—
—
—
—
—
St. Paul, in Covent Garden ■ • -
27
27
-
7
15
St. Mary-le-bone ------
424
340
84
161
85
Liberty of Old Artillery Ground
3
3
-
-
3
Norton Falgate ------
4
4
-
-
1
Limehouse -------
24
23
1
■
#
All-Saints, Poplar - - - - -
37
34
3
*
Bow - - - - -
10
9
1
-
#
Bromley
4
4
"
"
*
Edmonton ------
11
1 1
6
7
Enfield
6
6
"
3
St. Mary, Stoke Newington - - - -
3
3
—
—
—
Kensington -
Chelsea - "
48
69
36
62
12
7
77
_
Putney - - -
7
5
•2
10
5
Total
3-744
3.>043
54i
2,145
8ai '
Xotc .-—The sixteen Parishes in this List, marked with an asterisk (*), not having made theT
Return required tn Column V. ; the same taken by estimate, in the proportion to the whole |
which is exhibited in those' Paiishes which have made the required Return, would give an f
addition to Column V. of 287 bodies -------- -J
1,108
Nute also, That no Returns have been received from 33 of the Parishes lying wi
thin the Bills of Mortality.
SELECT COMMITTEE ON ANATOMY. ,43
COMMUNICATION from Mr. Brookes, dated Theatre of Anatomy, Blenheim-street;
loth November 1823, to Sir Astley P. Cooper, Bart.
Appendix, N° 19,
Brookes, dated The:
1823, to Sir Astley P
Theatre of Anatomy, Blenheim-street, 10th November 1823.
My Dear Sir Astley,
IN answer to your application, relative to the best means of procuring subjects for the
Anatomical Schools, I beg leave to notice, that, from the very disorganized state of the
system at present pursued by the resurrection men, little is to be expected from their services.
Indeed, if from either of the modes (hereafter mentioned) an ample supply could be obtained,
it would be more advantageous to desist from employing them altogether.
To enumerate some of their practices : 1st. A most infamous plan has lately been practised
by several resurrection men, of breaking open the doors of out-houses and dead houses, where
the bodies of suicides are deposited, previous to a coroner's inquest being held, and thus
committing a felony to procure them.
2dly. They are in the habit of destroying the tombs, vaults, and expensive coffins of the
more wealthy part of the community, to obtain their prey.
3dly. Violent quarrels almost always ensue, when two opposing parties meet ina c emetery,
which by rendering all liable to detection, tends much to increase the alarm that the public
experience from their depredations ; and lastly, from the number of searches by warrants, &c.
that almost daily take place in our premises, (for to speak individually, I have had several
subjects seized by police officers, three within the last month, for which I had paid large
sums) it is to be presumed, that after receiving the money from an anatomist for a body, an
information is subsequently laid against him by one of the parly ; whilst another, pretending
to be a relative, claims the subject, or re-stealing it, afterwards sells the same again, at a
different anatomical theatre.*
The exactions, villainy and insolence, of many of the long established resurrection men
are such, that I have for some time past, ceased to employ them ; in consequence, my school
has a very precarious and scanty supply ; and that, only from strangers and novices not able
to cope with those desperadoes, who nave had an entre by means of grave-diggers, into the
various burial grounds in and near the Metropolis, for a very considerable period.
Here, allow me to call to your recollection, the following fact, of Mr. Smith, one of your
pupils, who subsequently attended a summer course of my lectures. This gentleman being
engaged alone in dissecting in the Borough, a resurrection man entered the apartment, and
immediately proceeded to cut up the subject, with which he was then occupied, threatening
at the same time to assassinate Mr. S. should he offer the least resistance. I might further
remark, that I almost owe my existence to the proximity of a police office ; for on more than
one occasion, in consequence of commotions raised by these ruffians, my whole premises
would have been laid waste, were it not for the prompt and friendly interference of the ma-
gistrates in the vicinity, particularly of Sir Robert Baker.
Our object then, ought to be, in my humble opinion, to supersede the present very im-
perfect, extremely expensive, and (to speak the truth) illegal mode o.( supplying the London
Anatomical Theatres, and to substitute for it another effective, cheap and lawful one, so as
to preclude the necessity of our students migrating to Paris; to which city, owing to the facility
with which subjects are there procured, very many of the most wealthy of my class, as well
as of the classes of other professors, are going daily to pursue their anatomical studies ; unless
we can effect this change, this migrating will, at no great distance of time, be the entire ruin
of the London schools, whose high reputation for Anatomy, has heretofore been so decidedly
and justly celebrated.
At diis time probably, there are about 150 students attending my lectures daily, and pro-
bably as many more will enter during the following ten months.
We may calculate, that there are 700 more young gentlemen attending the other Anato-
mical classes in town, which will be found to be a very moderate computation ; for there are
always many hundreds annually frequenting the Anatomical and Chirurgical lectures in the
Borough, in a great measure, attracted by your talents; and the distinguished abilities also
.of the" professors of St. Bartholomew's and the London hospitals, secure the attendance of
several hundred more pupils; to these are to be added, those of all the other established
Anatomical Theatres in London. Now, presuming that according to the previous statement,
each student expends on an average two pounds per week only, (and should a few spend Jess,
the majority are far more lavish) multiply 2,000 by 52, you will obtain a result of one hundred
and four thousand pounds, yearly distributed amidst the middling classes of society in the
vicinity of our Anatomical Theatres, principally for sustenance and other necessaries; and,
lastly, there are the fees to hospitals and professors, who, being liberally supported by their
pupils, are again enabled to maintain costly establishments, or to promote science to an
unbounded extent.
Let me now call to mind, the plan that I had the honour of so strongly urging to you
several years ago, viz. that of importing subjects from Paris, and which at your suggestion,
was relinquished just as it was about to be carried into execution, for which no doubt, you
had cogent reasons.
On this mode, nevertheless, I did myself the honour of addressing a letter to Lord Sidmouth.
I also wrote about the same time, to the Lords of the Council ; I likewise applied to Baron
Cuvier
* A female subject lately taken from my bouse, was, after the lapse of a few days, sold to another
Anatomist.
s4
Appendix, N° 19.
APPENDIX TO REPORT PROM
Cuvicr on this business, anil have since addressed Sir Charles Stuart in Paris, through the
medium of Dr. Hyde, physician to the embassy, and am assured that an application was
made at my instance, to the French government, for permission to import subjects.
This, then, is still a desideratum, and I am convinced, may be carried into effect.
2dly. Subjects may be procured with extreme facility in Ireland, not only at Dublin, but
in Cork and other large cities in that kingdom.
3dly. If the governors and directors of eleemosynary establishments in London and its
vicinity (indeed all over the empire) could be induced to give up (secretly) the bodies of those
dying friendless in such establishments, all the Metropolitan schools might be furnished with,
more than a sufficient number of subjects for dissection, without harrowing up the feelings
of relatives, or those of the public.
Likewise the bodies of all convicts dying in prison or under confinement, in any part of
Great Britain, without friends to inter them, might be given up.
And permit me, Sir, further to add, that all criminals who forfeit their lives to the
offended laws of their country, being friendless, might be given up by the sheriffs for dis-
section. For this purpose, probably, an Act of Parliament may be necessary.
In fact, the bodies of all those who are supported by the public, either in prisons, hos-
Jiitals, infirmaries, or elsewhere, and die friendless, might, without at all outraging the
eelings of mankind, be privately devoted to the dissecting rooms.
There are also those who die without friends in naval and military hospitals ; such sub-
jects have found their way into my dissecting room after sepulture, and, I presume, into
those of other Anatomists.
Thus much for what may be done hereafter; now for the present moment. Would it
not be judicious in our government to issue instructions to the magistrates, overseers, &c.
for police officers, patrols, constables, watchmen, and other nocturnal guardians, to allow
even the present resurrection men to proceed with the dead bodies which they may have
procured, to their destination ; and lest on this latitude being given, a door should be
opened for murder, Anatomists should hold themselves responsible forat least the name and
residence of the party bringing the same, and also enter into an engagement not to pay
for any subject in future until after the space of twenty-four hours from the delivery of such
subject or subjects.
Now presuming that the Secretary of State for the Home Department would permit the
importation of subjects from France, Ireland, or any other place, I think that I could devise
a certain mode, with extreme facility, of preventing all contraband traffic that might be
suspected, should such attempt be made. As to the presumed terror of disease being pro-
pagated, I appeal to your judgment and extensive experience, whether we are not totally
unacquainted with any contagion being so communicated, except in some rare instances of
variola: this our dissecting-rooms prove, as well as the general good health of the resur-
rection men themselves, who in the first instance remove the bodies from their confined
situation in coffins, and come closely in contact with, and handle them, when they are
frequently in a state of decomposition, with impunity; also in a less degree, undertakers
and nurses do the same necessary offices, equally secure from every danger.
Of all the numerous students who have beeu educated at any theatre, there is but one
solitary instance of death occurring from dissection, and that was in the case of Dr. Walsh,
who unequivocally destroyed himself by the very mistaken manner in which he treated his
malady some twenty years ago, as you most probably know.
The Court of Examiners of the Royal College of Surgeons will not (very laudably) re-
ceive the certificate of a student, who has not repeatedly dissected the human body, nor is
there any professional man who knows the absolute necessity of such reiterated practice
better than yourself. How then is the object to be acquired? How are all the students
destined for naval and military service to obtain sufficient practical Anatomical knowledge,
except by one or more of the preceding modes, or by others better devised than my feeble
talents have been able to suggest.
My dear Sir,
Sir Astley P. Cooper, Bart. Your's, most faithfully.
Stc. &.c. &c.
Appendix, K" 20.
Appendix, N" 20.
COMMUNICATION from Mr. John Watson, Secretary of Apothecaries Hall ;
dated May 14th, 1828.
ON an average, during the last seven years, about 400 Students have been examined
annually by theCourt of Examiners at Apothecaries Hall. These have not all been edu-
cated in London; many have been in attendance at Edinburgh; some have been wholly
educated at Manchester; and of late, several English students have received their instruc-
tions from teachers in Dublin. No young men come before the court better qualified in
every respect, than those who have been entirely educated at Manchester, where excellent
lectures of every branch of medicine are given by very competent teachers; and the Man-
chester infirmary affords, under the physicians belonging to it, most ample opportunity for
the acquirement of practical knowledge.
The ready access to Dublin by the steam packets, the easy rate of living, and the facility
with which subjects for dissection are procured there, have of late induced very many
students
SELECT COMMITTEE ON ANATOMY.
{continued.)
students from Liverpool and its neighbourhood to go to Dublin to prosecute their medical Appendix, N" 20
studies.
In the year 1815, when the Act for better regulating the practice of Apothecaries in
England and Wales, was passed, there were in all England only six schools of Anatomy
(except those at Oxford and Cambridge); at the present time there are twenty schools in
which Anatomy is taught, and dissection carried on; viz. twelve in London, and eight in
the provinces*. The country schools are as follows :
At Manchester, three; conducted by Mr. Thomas Turner, Mr. Joseph Jordan, and
Mr. John Jesse.
At Liverpool, two; conducted by Mr. Formby and Mr. William Gill.
At Birmingham, one, where Mr. S. Cox is the teacher.
At Bristol, one; by Dr. Wallace.
At Sheffield, one, where lectures are given by Mr. Wilson Overend.
And an application has also been made from Leeds, by Mr Robert Baker, that the court
would receive him into the number of recognized teachers.
Thus since the time when the Act was passed, fourteen new schools of Anatomy have
been added to those before existing.
The Court of Examiners have not recognized the country schools, without ample proofs
of the zeal and competence of the teachers from persons the best qualified to appreciate
their talents and industry. The Court have witnessed, with satisfaction, the establishment
of these schools in the populous towns of the provinces, because they afford to the young
men destined for the medical profession, opportunities of acquiring information in that
gradual and consecutive way, (under the guidance and control of their parents or masters),
which is best calculated to be of advantage to them, and so different from that hurried
course of education, which too many are obliged, by circumstances, to submit to in a six
months residence in London. The last regulations of the Court of Examiners, by direct-
ing a consecutive course of study, will, it is hoped, be productive of infinite good.
Although the court do not require testimonials of their candidates having dissected, for
the reason already assigned, as arising out of the existing state of the laws, they examine
all candidates in Anatomy, and most particularly in the Anatomy of the thorax, of the
abdomen, and of the brain, as being the parts most interesting and most important to the
scientific practice of medicine.
I do not know that any documents are in existence, from which an accurate estimate can
be made of the number of general practitioners in England and Wales, but think it cannot
be less than 10,000. If this be taken to be about the number, and we suppose the medical
life of every one who passes his examination to be 25 years on the average, 400 persons will
every year be required to keep up the present number of general medical practitioners,
which is rather more than the average of the number passed at the Apothecaries Hall
during the last seven yearsf, but something less than the number passed in the last two
years.
It is presumed, that with very few exceptions, every person who passes his exam-
ination before the Court of Examiners, and settles in practice, does so as a general prac-
titioner ; that is to say, as a person who practises in surgery, in medicine, and as an accou-
cheur; this is universally true, as regards the country — the exceptions apply only to
London; but even here, the number of those persons who practise as apothecaries Only,
is diminishing every year; and it may be observed also, that it is in London only, with
a few exceptions, that any persons are found who practise surgery only; the union of the
two characters of surgeon and apothecary prevailing every where else, and forming the
general practitioner.
I do not think the number of students annually in London can exceed 700, as few of them
remain a second season.
John Watson.
May 14th, 1828,
Appendix, N° 21.
CASE extracted from the id Volume of Term Reports, page 733.
The King against Lynn.
THE defendant having been convicted on an indictment, charging him with entering a
certain burying-ground, and taking a coffin out of the earth, from which he took a dead
body, and carried it away for the purpose of dissecting it :
Bond,
Appendix, N°
Monday, Nov. 24th
1788.
* The same increase has also taken place in the teachers in other branches of study connected with
medicine ; and medical students in London have, since the passing of this Act, been ohliged to attend to
branches of knowledge before that time greatly neglected by the great majority of them, viz. chemistry,
and materia medica ; and all are now under the necessity of attending to the Physician's Practice, which
not one in fifty thought of doing before 1815.
t Since the 1st August 1815, more than four thousand persons have been examined at Apothecaiies
Hall as to their skill and abilities in the science and practice of medicine. An accurate register has been
kept of these persons, by reference to which, it can at once be seen where every person served his appren-
ticeship, what course of study he pursued afterwards, and at what school. An account is kept also of
the persons rejected, and of the reasons for such rejection.
568 T
,46 APPENDIX TO REPORT FROM
Appendix, N" 21, Bond, sergeant, now moved in arrest of judgment, on the ground that the offence was
(continued.) ' not cognizable in any court of criminal jurisdiction : if it he any crime, it is of ecclesias-
tical cognizance. The crime imputed to the defendant is not made penal hy any statute;
the only Act of Parliament which has any relation to this subject is that of i Jac. 1, c.12,
(a), which makes it felony to steal dead bodies for the purposes of witchcraft ; but that
clearly cannot affect the present question ; and the silence of Hale, Hawkins, and Stamford,
upon this subject, is a very strong argument to shew that there is not any such offence
cognizable irj criminal courts. In 3 Inst. 203, Lord Coke says, " It is to be observed, that
" in every sepulchre that hath a monument, two things are to be considered, viz.; the
" monument, and the sepulture or burial of the dead; the burial of the cadaver is nul/ius
" in bonis, and belongs to ecclesiastical cognizance; but as to the monument, action is
" given at the common law for defacing thereof." So that it was also the opinion of Lord
Coke, that the present charge is not the subject of an indictment in a criminal court.
There is an instance in 3 Inst. 45, of a person being taken with the head and face of a dead
man, with a book of sorcery, and was brought into the King's Bench, but no indictment
was preferred against him, and the only crime imputed to him was that of being a sorcerer.
And all the writers on this subject have considered the injury which is done to the executors
of the deceased by taking the shroudr and the trespass in digging the soil; taking it for
granted that the act of carrying away a dead body was not criminal.
Garrow, who was to support this motion, mentioned that perhaps the circumstance
stated in this indictment, of the defendants taking the body for the purpose of dissection,
might differ in this from the common case of taking up dead bodies for any indecent exhi-
bitions ; and on the court asking, whether this question had not been considered in the case
of one Young a few years ago, he observed that this case was very distinguishable from
that; for there the master of Shoreditch workhouse, a surgeon, and another person, were
indicted for conspiracy to prevent the burial of a person who died in the workhouse. But —
The Court said, that common decency required that the practice should be put a stop to ;
that the offence was cognizable in a criminal court, as being highly indecent, and contra
bonos mores ; at the bare idea alone of which nature revolted ; — that the purpose of taking
up the body for dissection did not make it less an indictable offence; and that, as it had
been the regular practice of the Old Bailey, in modern times, to try charges of this nature,
many of which had induced punishment, the circumstance of no writ of error having been
brought to reverse any of these judgments, was a strong proof of the universal opinion of
the profession upon this subject. They therefore refused even to grant a rule to shew
cause, lest that alone should convey to the public an idea that they entertained a doubt
respecting the crime alleged. But inasmuch as this defendant might have committed the
crime merely from ignorance, no person having been before punished for this offence, they
only fined him five marks.
Appendix, N* 22.
Appendix, N° 22. The KING against Cundick, Undertaker, for selling and disposing of the Body of an
executed Felon to be dissected, tried at Kingston Lent Assizes, 1822, coram Graham.
Extracted from the First Volume D. &, R. Nisi Prius Reports, p. 13.
The King against Cundick.
THIS was an indictment at common law for a misdemeanor. The first count stated, that
on the 10th of September, in the second year of the reign, one Edward Lee was publicly
executed at the parish of St. Mary Newington, in the county of Surrey ; that on the day
and year aforesaid, in the parish and county aforesaid, one George Cundick, of, &c. under-
taker, was retained and employed by William Waiter, the keeper of the gaol in and for the
said county, to bury the body of the said person so executed, for certain reward to be
therefore paid to the said G. C, by and on behalf of the said county, and in pursuance of
the said retainer and employment, the body of the said person so executed as aforesaid was
then and there delivered to the said G. C. for the purpose of being so by him buried as
aforesaid; and it then and there became the duty of the said G. C. to bury the same
accordingly; but that the said G. C. being an evil disposed person, and of a most wicked
and depraved disposition, and having no regard to his duty, nor to religion, decency,
morality, or the laws of this realm, did not nor would not bury the said body so delivered
him as aforesaid ; but on the contrary thereof, on the 1 ith September, in the year aforesaid,
at, &,c. aforesaid, unlawfully and wickedly, and for the sake of wicked lucre and gain, did
take and carry away the said body, and did sell and dispose of the same, for the purpose of
being dissected, cut in pieces, mangled, and destroyed, to the great scandal and disgrace of
religion, decency, and morality, in contempt of our Lord the King and his laws, to the evil
example of all other persons in like cases offending, and against the peace," &c.
There were three other counts, slightly varying the charge, but all stating that the defen-
dant had sold the body for lucre and gain, and for the purpose of being dissected. Plea,
Not Guilty, and issue thereon.
The evidence in support of the prosecution was in substance this:— That the keeper of
the county gaol had authority to employ an undertaker to bury the body; that he did
employ the defendant to bury it, and paid him the usual fee ; that the body was given into
the possession of the defendant's servants, and that he himself had acknowledged it had
come to his house; that when the relatives of the deceased applied to see the body, the
defendant
SELECT COMMITTEE ON ANATOMY.
'47
defendant told them it was already buried ; that upon being sent for by the gaoler to explain Appendix, N° 2
his conduct, the defendant evaded going, or giving any explanation ; that several days after {continued.)
the day when he declared the body had been buried, defendant clandestinely went through
the ceremony of burying a coffin filled witii rubbish; that he was seen in the night time
removing a heavy package from his own house into a hackney coach; and that the body
was afterwards found at a surgeon's, in progress of dissection, and identified as the body of
Edward Lee.
On the part of the defendant, two objections were taken ; first, that the indictment through-
out was (and upon general principles,) bad, as a perfect anomaly in the history of criminal
pleading. With the exception of the few formal words at the commencement and conclu-
sion, there was not an expression in it that at all resembled the language of an indictment.
It was to all appearance and effect, a declaration in assumpsit, instead of an indictment for
a misdemeanor. But second, if the indictment could be held good, it was manifestly un-
supported by the evidence, in three several particulars, for it stated in all the counts, that
the defendant had sold the body, that he had sold it for lucre and gain, and that he had sold
it for the purpose of being dissected. Now there was no evidence in support of any one
of these averments. The only evidence was, that the body was not buried, but that it was
found at a surgeon's; and without the production of the surgeon, and his testimony that
he had bought the bod}' of the defendant for money and for the purpose of dissection, the
jury could not be asked to infer or presume three such important allegations against a
defendant, and the indictment therefore entirely failed upon evidence brought forward.
The learned Judge, however, overruled both objections, leaving it to the defendant's
counsel to resei ve them for another place, where they might have the opportunity of moving
them in arrest of judgment, if the defendant should be convicted.
The Jury found the defendant guilty.
Nolan and Comyn, for the prosecution.
Adolphus, Turton, and Ryland for the defendant.
The objections were not renewed, when the defendant was brought up for judgment.
Appendix, N° 23.
EXTRACT from a Report of the Trial of John Davies and others, of Warrington, for Appendix, N° 23.
obtaining the Body of Jane Fairclough, which had been taken from the Chapelyard
at Hill Cliff, in October, 1827; — tried at Lancaster, at the Spring Assizes, 1828.
Printed by E. Smith & Co. Liverpool. 1828.
Lancaster Assizes, Nisi Prius Court; Friday, March 14, 1828.
Mr. Brown opened the case against John Davies, Edward Hall, William Blundell,
Richard Box, and Thomas Ashton.
Mr. Sergeant Jones stated the case for the prosecution.
The Indictment.
The King against John Davies and Others.
Lancashire, to wit.— This indictment, which was found at the Quarter Sessions held at
Kirkdale on the 5th of November last, and thence removed by certiorari, charged the
defendants in [follow the ten first counts, charging conspiracy, of which all the defendants
were acquitted.]
11th Count, that the said defendants did unlawfully procure, and receive, and take into
their possession, the dead body of Jane Fairclough, to the intent that the same should be
unlawfully dissected, which said body has been lawfully interred at High Cliff, in the town-
ship of Appleton, after the same had been lately disinterred from the place of its lawful
interment, and that at the time they so received it, they knew the said body to have been
unlawfully disinterred.
12th Count, that the said defendants did unlawfully procure, and take into their posses-
sion the body of Jane Fairclough, and brought it into the town of Warrington with the
intent to dissect the same, the said body having been lately disinterred from Hill Cliff, in
the county of Chester, with the intent that the same should be unlawfully dissected, at the
same time knowing the said body to have been disinterred.
13th Count, that the said defendants took into their possession, at Warrington, with in-
tent to dissect, the dead body of Jane Fairclough, at the time knowing the same to have
been unlawfully disinterred.
14th Count, that the said defendants did unlawfully procure, receive, and take the dead
body of Jane Fairclough into the town of Warrington aforesaid, with intent that the same
should be unlawfully dissected, on the 3rd of October, at Warrington aforesaid; the said
body, so procured, having been lately disinterred from the place of its lawful interment,
and that they at the time knew that the said body had been unlawfully and indecently dis-
interred against the peace, &c.
Plea— Not Guilty. , .
Samuel Fairclough being sworn, said, I am son of Mr. Fairclough, of Buttonwood, and
had a sister named Jane, who died on the 25th of September; she was interred on the 28th
at Hill Cliff, a buiial-place belonging to the Baptists, in Appleton, Cheshire. I afterwards
568. T2 S<IW
i48 APPENDIX TO REPORT PROM
Appendix, N° 23, saw the body on the 3d of October, in Dr. Moss's back yard, in Warrington. I knew the
{continued.) body to be that of my sister.
, Cross-examined by Mr. Brougham.— My father is the prosecutor in this rase, and
Mr. Nicholson is the attorney. 1 don't know that the Dissenters' Society in London is al-
together the real prosecutor, nor that my father ever offered to drop the prosecution for a
sum of money. I know Broadhurst. I will swear that my father did not send him to
Davies, or attempt any negotiation about dropping the matter. I suppose the Society will
find what money my father does not pay.
Mr. Brougham. — I thought so : a most discreditable thing.
Mr. Baron Hullock. — What have we to do with that ?
Witness.— My father was originally the prosecutor, and is so still.
Thomas Swinton was called, and said, I am a farmer at Appleton, and remember the
funeral on Friday. I passed the grave on Monday, and all appeared safe. On Tuesday,
on account of a report, I went and found the soil spread about, the coffin torn to pieces,
and the body gone.
Pearson Cliatterton — I am a joiner, at Warrington, living about forty to fifty yards from
the back of Dr. Moss's house. On the Tuesday night, about half-past eleven o'clock,
I had been having my supper, and was called up stairs by my wife, when I saw three men
carrying a package, or hamper, towards Dr. Moss's back premises. I noticed the men as
much as I could, though I cannot say who they were; but 1 believe Box was one of them.
His dress was such as" I had generally seen him in. His size, also, strengthened my belief.
I was looking through my bed-room window. My wife was with me, but is not here, not
being in a fit state for travelling. They went directly to the hole in the back wall, the
shutter of which was opened, and put the hamper, or package, through it. One of them
went through the hole, and the others came away. One of them looked about, as if
to see whether they were observed. It was very moonlight.
To the Judge. — The window is on the first floor. I have known Box for some years.
1 was born in Warrington. Box has lived there some years. He was dressed in a light
coat and light stockings. I can't say there are other persons similarly dressed. He is a
tallish man. The dress was remarkably light; the dress of the others was darker. From
their mode of carrying the luggage, I thought it was a hamper.
William Gregson. — I am a servant to Dr. Moss. On the Tuesday I received orders
from my master" There is a sort of door, or trap, into the back lane. I went, about half-
past eleven at night, and opened it. Blundell, and another man whom 1 don't know, came.
They brought a package, which was carried to a room in the garden ; it was a sack, and a
body in it, the same which was afterwards shown to young Pairelough. Blundell came into
the yard, the other went away. I know Mr. Davies. I have no knowledge or belief as to
the other person. I had met Davies in the horse-market ; he told me they were bringing a
bodv to our house. 1 was going to look for Dr. Moss about half-past eleven. Davies
retired with me, and waited till the body was brought; he was in the garden when it arrived.
After we had carried the body to the room in the garden, we met Dr. Moss coming into
the yard gate. We all returned, and opened the sack, and laid the body upon the table.
Davies is an apprentice to the dispensary, and Blundell, an apprentice to a stationer.
They staid to take a glass of ale with Dr. Moss. The body remained until the following
evening, when Mr. Nicholson came. The body was shown to him, and to Fairclough.
Cross-examined by Mr. Courtenay.— It was not Robert Blundell. Robert was charged
with this, but I swear it was William. The first I had seen of him that night was at the
hole in the back wall.
Re-examined. — Robert belongs also to the dispensarj'.
Paul Caldwell. — I was deputy-constable of Warrington last October. I found Box in
custody at my house on Thursday morning. I was from home when he was brought.
I asked him what he was brought there for. lie said, about the body they had found. I said,
I hope you have nothing to do with it. He said, " No further than helping to carry it : I was
asked to assist in carrying a bundle or hamper from Bellion's cellar (in an empty house in
Sankey-streel)lo Dr. Moss's, and that was all I had to do with it." He used to be a publican,
and was then an hostler or a housekeeper. There is a ear, but his son's name is upon it.
Dr. Albert Parry Moss. — I am a physician at Warrington; the defendant Davies is an
apprentice at the dispensary; he called at my house on Tuesday, the 2d October, about
eight o'clock in the evening. He asked me if I would allow them the use of a room in my
garden, for opening a young subject. After some further conversation I consented, and
gave my servant some orders. 1 was out late that night ; on my return, about half-past
twelve, I met Davies and Blundell at the gate; they informed me, in answer to my ques-
tion, that they had brought the body. We went into the room, where the body of a young
woman was; it was taken out of the sack, and placed on a table; it was naked; they re-
mained with me about half an hour afterwards. On the following da}-, Davies's father
called upon me; and, in consequence of something I heard, the body was put into a
hamper, and put into the back garden ; in the evening Mr. Nicholson came, and I showed
him the body.
Cross-examined by Mr. Brougham. — I have been a physician in Warrington fifteen or
sixteen years. I am physician to the dispensary in which Mr. Davies is a student; he is of
good character. The room mentioned is not exactly a dissecting-room, but is well calcu-
lated for one. There is a hole in the garden wall, with a door, where manure is taken out.
The room was formerly a museum for my father's prepaiations, but was never used by me
lor dissection. 1 have studied medicine, and used dissections, but not at home. It is
impossible
SELECT COMMITTEE ON ANATOMY. j49
impossible to do without dissections. Davies is a young man ; he requested permission to use .Appendix, N° 23,
the room for a body which somebody had promised to bring. The usual way tor medical {continued.)
men to obtain bodies is from unknown persons, and in the night. I know Mr. Hall ; he is
in practice at Warrington, as a surgeon and apothecarry ; he is of good character.
Samuel Kaye. — I am clerk to Mr. Nicholson, who is clerk to the magistrates at Warring-
ton. I attended when Blundell and Davies were upon this charge before the magistrates.
Mr. Hall was present, and, after the examinations were gone through, he offered himself as
a witness ; I took down his evidence in writing.
To Mr. Brougham. — One of the magistrates did not offer that Hall should hear nothing
more of the matter, if he would tell all. Mr. Foulkes produced him, I rather think, and
Mr. Nicholson cross-examined him. 1 don't recollect what passed between Mr. Nicholson
and Mr. Foulkes about Mr. Hall.
Cross-examined by Mr. Courtena}'. — Box has brought an action, and obtained damages,
for being imprisoned on this charge.
Re-examined. — Mr. Hall was not charged till after this evidence.
Mr. Brougham objected to the reading of that evidence, which was confessional, as he
would show. His Lordship permitted evidence on that point, and
James Bayley, attorney, of Warrington, was sworn. — He said, I was present. The ma-
gistrate said, if distinct payment for the body to persons unknown was proved, there would
be an end of that point; Mr. Hall did so- Mr. Nicholson said, Hall must speak the truth,
and the whole truth.
Edw. VV. Foulkes. — I was present. The magistrate said, if we could show distinctly that
the parties then before him were not the persons who brought the body, and bring the man
who had done so, there would be an end of the case as to them. Mr. Hall's evidence was
then given with that view. Mr. Nicholson, after Hall had been sworn, said, " Now, mind,
Sir, you have sworn to tell the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth;" and
he repeated " Now, Sir, upon your oath," several times, which I protested against, and said,
such a repetition was an attack upon so respectable a person as Mr. Hall.
Mr. Baron Hullock. — I shall allow the paper to be read.
Mr. Brougham said, the inducement held out by the promise of the magistrate, rendered
Mr. Hall's evidence confessional.
Mr. Baron Hullock.— It was not a promise in favour of Mr. Hall.
Mr. Courtenav begged that the name of every other person in the evidence might be sup-
pressed, except Ilall's.
Mr. Baron Hullock so ruled.
Mr. Kaye then stated the substance, as follows : — Edward Hall, of Warrington, surgeon,
said he knew of a body being brought into Warrington on Tuesday evening last; he saw
the body, but did not know whether it was a male or female; he could identify the man
who had been several times in Warrington before, and whom he did not know. The man
brought the body to a cellar lately occupied by Mr. Bellion, and it was afterwards removed
to Dr. Moss's; he did not know where the body was got from; the man was paid four
guineas ; he did not see the young woman's funeral. A person applied to him to know
whether he would pay for a body for him, as he had bought one for four guineas ; he paid the
man four guineas, and was authorized by the person to do so. He saw the man on Friday,
and the body was brought on Tuesday morning, at five o'clock. Witness saw the body in
the cellar; he merely saw an arm projecting out of the sack. The body was removed on
Tuesday night, about half-past twelve o'clock. Witness merely assisted to carry it out of
the yard at Bellion's, and then returned to his own house. He went merely as a spectator,
and does not know whither it was taken.
Cross-examined by Mr. Courtenay. — Caldwell, who has been examined to-day, was one
of the defendants in Box's action the other day.
Mr. Baron Hullock. — There is no evidence against Ashton.
Dr. Moss, re called, said bodies frequently were brought from Ireland, and foreign parts.
Mr. Brougham addressed the jury for the defendants, Davies and Hall ; Mr. Courtenay
addressed the jury for the defendant Blundell.
Mr. Baron Hullock, in charging the jury, said, that, to prove a conspiracy, it was not
necessary that all the parties should be shown to have been together; but if, from all the
circumstances of their conduct, it was to be presumed that there must have been a previous
coucert, that would be enough to establish the charge. But as conspiracy was an offence
of serious magnitude, they should be satisfied, before finding a verdict of guilty on the former
part of the indictment, "that the conduct of the defendants was the result of previous con-
cert. There was no evidence against Ashton, who must, therefore, be acquitted. As to
Box, the evidence was very slight. If they thought the rest, or any of them, were in pos-
session of the body under circumstances which must have apprized them that it was impro-
perly disinterred, the jury would find them guilty of the latter part of the charge. Blundell's
heing a stationer did not relieve him from suspicion, for his brother was in the dispensary.
The only bodies legally liable to dissection in this couniry, were those of persons executed
for murder. Howevei"necessary it might be, for the purposes of humanity and science, that
these things should be done, yet, as long as the law remained as it was at present, the dis-
interment of bodies for dissection was an offence liable to punishment. The amount of that
punishment must always depend on the circumstances of the case. The only evidence
against Hall was his own account given to the magistrates ; they would judge whether that
clearly shewed him to have had a guilty knowledge of the way in which the body had been
obtained.
56S. T 3 The
»5o
APPENDIX TO REPORT ON ANATOMY.
The Jury deliberated for a few minutes, and then pronounced Davics and Blundell Gui/li/
on the four last counts, which charged a possession of the body, with knowledge of the
illegal disinterment ; and Not Guilty of the charge of conspiracy.
Hall, Box and Ashton were acquitted of the whole charge.
[From the Times Newspaper, May lgth, 1828.]
The King v. Davies and Another.
Mr. Serjeant Jones prayed the judgment of the court on the defendants John Davies
and William Blundell, who had been convicted at the last Lancaster Assizes, before Mr.
Baron Hullock, of, &c.
The defendants having appeared on the floor of the court, Mr. Justice Littledale pro-
ceeded to read the learned Judge's report of the trial, from which it appeared, that the
defendants were indicted, jointly with three other persons named Hall, Box, and Ashton, for
a conspiracy to procure the body to be disinterred for the purpose of dissection. All the
defendants were acquitted of the conspiracy ; and Davies and Blundell only were found
guilty of the minor offence above stated. The body in question, which was that of Jane
Fairclough, the daughter of Mr. Thomas Fairclough, of Warrington, was interred on the
28th of September last, in the burial ground of the Baptist-chapel, at Hill-cliff, in the
eastern part of Cheshire ; and a few days afterwards it was disinterred and conveyed to the
premises of Dr. Moss, a physician of eminence at Warrington. It appeared that the
body had been sold by a stranger for four guineas; that the defendant Davies, who was a
pupil at the Warrington Dispensary, was cognizant of the fact of the disinterment, but that
Blundell, who was an apprentice of a stationer at Warrington, was concerned in the trans-
action no farther than in assisting in the removal of the body by night, from the place
where it was deposited to that where it was intended to be dissected, and that he had done
so at the request of the surgeon.
Affidavits were now put in on the part of the defendants, impugning the motives of the
prosecutor, and stating, that the prosecution had been carried on with funds collected bv
subscriptions among the Dissenters of the town of Warrington, and by pecuniary aid from
the Baptist Society in that place. Some of the affidavits also stated, that the proposals of
compromise had been made on the part of the prosecutor on payment by the defendants, of
a sum of 100/. The affidavit on the part of the defendant Davies, stated, that he was under
apprenticeship in the Warrington Dispensary, and had been greatly harrassed and disturbed
in his mind by this prosecution. Blundell's affidavit, stated, that he had suffered greatly
on account of this prosecution — that his mind had become unsettled, and he was now
in a very delicate state of health.
Mr. Brougham addressed the court on the part of the defendant Davies; Mr. Courtenay
addressed the court on the part of the defendant Blundell ; Mr. Serjeant Jones addressed
the court for the prosecution.
Mr. Justice Bayley, in passing sentence, observed, that there could be no doubt that this
was an offence calculated in the highest degree to distress the feelings of the surviving
friends of persons whose bodies were thus disinterred, and the court could not, therefore,
consider it a light offence; but there were degrees of guilt, and in this case the defendants
were not the most criminal parties. Taking all the circumstances into consideration, the
court sentenced the defendant Davies to the payment of a fine of 20 /. and the defendant
Blundell to a fine of 5/.
The defendants paid the money immediately, and were discharged.
Appendix, N° 24,
Appendix, N° 24.
(See Page. 45.)
PARISH OF ST. GEORGE, HANOVER SQUARE.
I.
II.
III.
YEARS.
Died in the Workhouse.
Died in the Workhouse
Died in the Workhouse
and
and
Buried by the Parish.
Buried by Friend*.
1818
lflO
143
47
1819
197
l6l
36
18-20
158
126
1821
131
89
42
1822
147
106
41
1823
177
132
46
1824
142
109
33
1825
164
130
34
1826
182
140
42
1827
177
142
35
Total in 10 Years
1,665
1,278
387
I
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